Ep. 100: Metabolic Horses, Toxic Plants & Pasture Struggles - How Extension Helps Horse Owners

Episode Notes

🎉 We’ve hit 100 episodes! That’s 100 conversations, 100 lessons learned, and 100 chances to grow together as horse and livestock owners - thank you for being part of this journey!

On this episode, host Katy Starr chats with Dr. Kris Hiney, Equine Extension Specialist for Oklahoma State University, about how Extension connects science to the stable and why it’s one of the most valuable (yet underused) tools in the horse industry, including: 

• Why pasture management is one of the toughest challenges horse owners face 
• What every owner should know about metabolic horses and carbohydrate sensitivities
• How relying on Facebook advice could be hurting your horse

Plus, we talk about Dr. Hiney’s own podcast, Tack Box Talk, and how Extension can save horse owners time, money, and frustration. Be sure to tune in to this episode to see how you can have a chance to win Standlee free product coupons and swag to help us celebrate 100 episodes!

🎧 Listen now on the Beyond the Barn podcast

Have a topic idea or feedback to share? We want to connect with you! Email podcast@standlee.com

Listen through the episode for your chance to win our giveaway - email the specific details mentioned in the episode to podcast@standlee.com

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*Views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the view of Standlee Premium Products, LLC.*

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Connect with Dr. Hiney:

• Learn more at her University page
• Email - khiney@okstate.edu
• Tack Box Talk podcast
• Facebook
• Instagram

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Read full episode transcript

Katy Starr (00:01):

Hi, I'm Katy Starr and you're listening to Beyond the Barn. Join me on this journey as we bust equine and livestock nutrition myths and sit down with some of the most intriguing experts from across the country. We'll also take you behind the scenes of how premium western quality forage is grown and brought to your favorite farm and ranch retail store. I'm so glad you're here.

 

Katy Starr (00:27):

Today. We hit triple digits. We're celebrating 100 episodes of Beyond the Barn. I can hardly believe it. That's 100 times you've tuned in, learned alongside us and shown up for your horses and livestock and we couldn't be more grateful. As a small thank you, we're giving away some Standlee free product coupons and fun swag. So, listen through this episode to hear how you can have a chance to win. Welcome back to another episode of Beyond the Barn. Dr. Kris Hiney is the Equine extension specialist for Oklahoma State University, where she works with both youth and adults to help horse owners create more productive, enriching lives with their horses, whether it's nutrition, management, or simply learning to better understand a horse's behavior. She has a gift for turning research into practical advice for horse owners, and she is a self-proclaimed dog agility addict. So, Dr. Hiney, thank you so much for joining us on the Beyond the Barn podcast today.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (01:29):

Well, thanks for inviting me. I'm happy to be here.

 

Katy Starr (01:31):

And just a reminder for our listeners, any of the topics that we cover on the Beyond the Barn Podcast are more generalized and not specific to any individual horse or any specific situation. Be sure to always work with your veterinarian and nutritionist before making any drastic changes to your horse's feed program. Or you can reach out and talk directly with our PhD equine nutritionist on any specifics that you would like to know. So, Dr. Hiney, to kind of get us started today, why don't you tell us just a little bit about where you grew up and your background with horses?

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (02:05):

Sure. I actually grew up in Morris, Illinois, which is about an hour south of Chicago. My mom was a horse enthusiast and so by default it was predestined and I, you know, always had kind of horses, the, you know, the little as everybody calls them the backyard horses, shetland ponies, welsh ponies, kind of my mom's old hand me downs. And then I really got involved in 4-H and that's where I started to be more interested in doing kind of like, okay, how do you prepare for the county fair? And started to take lessons and then got my first horse and you know, read and studied and figured out how to train him and then got my second horse. And so, for me always 4-H was a big part of how I actually got started in the horse industry.

 

Katy Starr (02:49):

Yeah. Well and that explains a little bit why you ended up in extension as well because I think there's some strong connections with those. So, you kind of have that background with that everything. That's so cool. So, do you lean more Western? English? What's kind of your favorite discipline that you are more drawn to?

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (03:10):

I did more actually hunt seat when I was a kid, but then I transferred to Western essentially through graduate school and postgraduate school because I kind of fell in love with reining horses. And so that's what I did for quite a while. I trained and showed my own horses and did NRHA competitions with them.

 

Katy Starr (03:28):

That's really awesome. And so, kind of moving into your later years, your schooling years, what kind of inspired you to pursue, obviously you have your love for horses, but what kind of inspired you to pursue an equine career and then actually led you into extension?

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (03:46):

So, you know, I always give the shout out to the kids there. Everybody goes to college, you're going to be a vet, right? Because that's really the only option that you ever think about when you're a kid and crazy about animals, so I went to school fully intending to be a veterinarian, but I actually got involved as a student worker in a monogastric nutrition lab. And so I really, really liked the research side of it, and at the time I always say if there were guidance counselors back then that would've talked to me a little bit more. I just assumed that if I went to vet school then I'd end up doing the same thing over and over every day and really liked the idea of learning new things. And so rather than going to vet school, I broke everybody's heart, and I went to grad school instead, but I was really, really passionate about horses.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (04:31):

And so I did grad school that was focused on equine. So, that's kind of where my path diverged from what I thought I was going to be when I was a kid. I actually did undergraduate teaching full-time for quite a while and then had an opportunity to do this position. So, I moved into extension, which I always say has the benefits of teaching but you don't have to give them tests. So, it turns out they like you a lot more if you don't give them a grade after you teach them things. So, that's been actually kind of a fun transition to doing adult and youth education.

 

Katy Starr (05:04):

Yeah, no, that is really awesome. So, we've talked about extension just a little bit on the podcast. I have a very kind of soft spot for extension. I've honestly, in every aspect of my career I have always partnered with worked with those in extension because I just believe so much in what you guys do, what you offer and how you help livestock/horse owners. And it goes beyond that, right? Like if you're growing crops and all of that, it's just so valuable and sometimes I don't know that people know just what you guys offer and what you can do to help them. And so, for those that may be a little bit more unfamiliar with extension, can you just share a little bit more about what it is and what you guys do?

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (05:50):

Yeah, so generally extension is a part of a land grant university's mission. And so we don't have to go into the Morrill Act and all the fancy why extension exists. But it is essentially supposed to be that connection between research that happens at universities and taking that research and bringing it back to the people. And as you said whether it's crops or water conservation, manure management, equine, cattle, so it is us taking all of that relevant information and trying to directly help people in our community to apply that information.

 

Katy Starr (06:29):

Yeah, no that's excellent. And what would you say, I mean, because you've been working with extension for quite a while, so what would you say is maybe one of the most common mistakes that you see horse owners make based off of just like your years of experience and everything.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (06:46):

Well I think most of my fellow equine extension specialists would probably agree with me. The hardest thing for people is probably pasture management because everything about the horse is like fighting against you trying to have high quality pastures. And I always chuckle when, you know, when I ask people to come do some specific pasture management presentations that are more of my plant people, right?

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (07:10):

So, when we bring in the plant specialists, they, you know, always talk about stocking density and all that. And I was like, you guys, you know in horses we don't have stocking density. You have as many horses as you have, right? Maybe more than you want, right? So, and then you got to figure it out. And so we're not the same that says okay, we can only have 50 head of mama cows here. That's not how we work. Right? And so, pasture management is always super, super tricky I think for horse owners.

 

Katy Starr (07:36):

Yeah, well and it makes a lot of sense too because when you think about horse ownership, depending on like obviously you do a lot in Oklahoma, but when you think about across the country and the different environments that exist, I mean you have people that maybe think they have their horses out on pasture but the grass is like this short and really not doing much for the animal. Especially when you think about environments like California that are kind of a little bit more drought ridden and things like that. They might have the space but they don't have the pasture to provide the nutrition that the horse would need if they were just only, I guess their fiber source was mainly coming from the pasture. And so yeah, I think that's a really interesting one that people maybe don't always realize just how important it is to kind of have a handle on understanding your pasture and what it can do for your horses.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (08:30):

Yeah, and sometimes you know, one of the common things we say, you know, it's okay I guess if you're not going to manage it for grass production because it still provides mental benefits, exercise, all the other things. And so you just have to decide what your system is.

 

Katy Starr (08:42):

What you're going to use it for. And have a good understanding of that. Yeah, that's excellent. And what would you say are maybe some of the more common concerns or struggles that you hear from horse owners from your time working with extension? Because you talked about pasture management a little bit, but what are some other things that you hear about that are common struggles for horse owners and that you experience quite frequently?

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (09:07):

I mean, probably the most common questions because a lot of people will, you know, use their veterinarian for advice and because I'm at the state level, if they're easier questions their county educators can help them with it. So, I probably get more questions about the problem children, horses, so the metabolic horses and the other ones with carbohydrate sensitivities, those are always a bigger challenge for people. And so I get those questions quite a bit. And then the other one that probably comes up are the toxic plants. And so those are always hanging out there. They're a management, a land management issue, a maintenance issue. And so those are probably the, if I did categories right, the two biggest categories I probably get.

 

Katy Starr (09:54):

Yeah, well and especially with the toxic plants, just knowing how there's different plants in different parts of the country and kind of just people understanding even I would assume even like in Oklahoma where you're dealing with different counties and things like that, you might have some that are more prominent than others and really helping horse owners understand things to avoid and maybe keep out of pastures and things like that if you can. So, can you share a little bit about, I mean you say like metabolic horses and things like that because I feel like that's something that's kind of been a little bit more on the rise rather than not . So, talk to us a little bit about that and kind of how you work with horse owners in some of those. And obviously like every situation's different, right? But maybe you could kind of give us like some examples of some things that you've been doing recently with horse owners on that.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (10:41):

So, somebody had even asked me like the question, are there really that many more horses that have metabolic issues or is it that we're asking people to do more regular blood work on horses that are kind of in these risk categories and identifying them before you see.

 

Katy Starr (10:58):

The symptoms? Yeah.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (10:59):

Before you see the symptoms. And so we are probably getting more horses picked up that way. Certainly there's a genetic component, but I don't think anybody's trying to breed for them really. Right. But we overfeed them too because there's a lot of them are under exercised as well. And so, I think oftentimes it kind of, it's multifactorial, but we do seem to have at least again in my just experience of my neck of the world, more questions about that. Now maybe again, is it internet awareness and people are thinking about it more so they're asking more. But that is one that tends to come my way a little bit more general advice. What we've learned over the years, we've always told people to, you know, test their forge and we've been saying test your forge forever, right? But we've also learned that these insulin dysregulated horses can be very individualistic to the response to feeds.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (11:55):

And so, if somebody's having trouble, they probably really do need to use blood work to figure out what the response of their horse to different feeds. Because what might be right for one can actually trigger hyperinsulinemia in another. So, that's probably, I think the most recent and it's been over the last couple years, but there was even a presentation at ESS even within forages that were supposed to be safe, some of these horses were still having a difference in response. And you know, there's so many things too. Some of these guys when they've done studies with them, because I always chuckle like some of them just eat their food so much faster, right? So, they don't get fat for, you know, no reason .

 

Katy Starr (12:36):

Right.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (12:37):

There's a lot of individual differences in the horses too that you have to account for. And so while we do try to make broad general guidelines for horses, once your kind of in that disease state, I think you do have to treat them a little bit more as truly an individual when it comes to diagnostics and treatment.

 

Katy Starr (12:55):

Right. Well and, and one thing that we always like to share on our podcast is, and I, I probably sound like a broken record at this point, but is just the importance of working, especially at that point when you have a diseased horse, it's working with your veterinarian, it's so important to have a really good positive relationship with them. And you know, if you have access to a nutritionist or one of the feed manufacturers nutritionists that you trust to work with and working with extension for, you know, just having a really good team put together that you can rely on to bounce ideas off of and really work with your individual horse and your individual situation. I mean that's why I mentioned the disclaimer at the beginning is just we can have folks on to talk about different topics and ideas and I think a lot of it is so valuable. And then when it really gets to the nitty gritty, especially something that is as tricky as some of the metabolic diseases and things like that, I mean you've really got to make sure that you're working with a good solid team to kind of help your horse be as healthy as it can for what it's dealing with and have a comfortable life too.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (14:04):

Absolutely.

 

Katy Starr (14:04):

And you mentioned ESS, so we just attended the Equine Science Society Symposium earlier this summer in Fort Collins, Colorado. So, this happens every couple of years. Well I'll actually let you speak to that a little bit. You don't have to go into super detail, but just share just to touch on what it is, the people that come and what we do there.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (14:25):

Yeah, so Equine Society, there you go. ESS, that's why we say that, holds their symposium every two years. So, they've always been held in the US but we do have people coming from Europe and Canada that will come to listen and present there as well. But it's really a gathering of equine researchers in one location. And so people submit abstracts so that they can present their latest research and it's on everything from the latest on the microbiome to exercise physiology, genetics, behavior. And we even have presentations on extension and teaching. So, like how do we do the best job we can in reaching out to our audiences and delivering information. So, for us it's really just a big get together of everybody we know , but it is a huge information sharing. And then from those resulting abstracts, individuals will write papers, submit those as well as our next generation of equine scientists are testing the waters or practicing their skills at presentations and they're eligible for awards and, and different things like that. So, it's really fun.

 

Katy Starr (15:31):

Yeah, it's such a great program, I really enjoy it. So, we talked a little bit about this, but if you had to pick one or some that came to mind as you attended and have been following up on some of those since we've been there, but of practical equine research that was presented this year and you wish that every horse owner knew about what kind of comes to mind for you that you'd like to share?

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (15:53):

Well, there's a couple of them and one I already alluded to and that was the presentation that some insulin dysregulated horses had high insulin responses to what we've traditionally called our safe forage. And so if you have one of those horses and you're having trouble, what we kind of say gaining metabolic control, you might really need to test that horse's response to forage even if you thought it was safe. So, that one I think was a good take home there. The other ones I think are just maybe more humorous but practical. Because I, I actually looked through it all the abstracts and tried to pick out what were the ones that I thought were most important to my stakeholders in Oklahoma.

 

Katy Starr (16:30):

Right.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (16:31):

And one of those was the plant ID apps because we know everybody's out there now taking pictures of things and looking up what they were. And so there was a presentation that actually compared the accuracy on all of the different plant apps. And so that was a really good one. So, I guess I can say it out loud because it was in the abstract, “PictureThis” was the most accurate plant app, at least relative to things you find in horse pasture. So, I thought that was super practical, right? So, people want to know which app to use. And then the other one, again, I'm going to say is kind of humorous. So, because of the huge advent in AI and everybody just having ChatGPT answer all their questions, right? So, there was a team that looked and asked questions of a couple different of AIs. And so what they found that the AI could all use the lower level questions, they could answer those extension bots was the one that used the best high-quality resources. So, that one is programmed to only use like real information.

 

Katy Starr (17:31):

Right? Good sources.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (17:33):

AI can absorb anything out there folks. So, they make stuff up too. But I really love their, their conclusion and I hope it still is true, that AI programs struggled with the complex questions and were inconsistent. And so, you're, you're humans, right? So, your human extension specialist is still better .

 

Katy Starr (17:51):

They're valuable, don't forget about them.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (17:54):

So, again, maybe that was completely personal bias why I thought that one was super important, but I mean talking about practical, I thought that was like a really great abstract. So, hopefully that doesn't change anytime in the future and we're completely overrun, but

 

Katy Starr (18:07):

Right, right. Well, I sat in, I sat in on that one as well because I was just interested to see what the takeaways were from that. And yeah, I mean you gotta be careful with where you're getting your information. I mean we talk about how sometimes on social groups like Facebook and things like that, Reddit's, things like that, take it with a grain of salt, because sometimes the information that you're going to get from AI could be similar. And so don't forget about those people that are putting in the time to be educated on some of these things. Like that's what they're there for. They're such a good resource for you. And that's extension, that's your veterinarian and your nutritionist that just has that background and everything. So, yeah, I thought that was a interesting one as well. .

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (18:52):

It was a good one. .

 

Katy Starr (18:54):

And so, I mean you're no beginner when it comes to podcasts because you actually also host a podcast called Tack Box Talk and it's a podcast where equine academic professionals kind of share their personal knowledge and experience. So, what has been your favorite episode to record and why?

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (19:14):

Oh goodness. You know, I like the ones where I learn a lot. So, there's been a couple that were, you know, outside of my realm of expertise when we talked to the equine specialist for the USDA and she gave us her insight, Angela, I probably get it wrong now, Angela McCluskey, I believe is her name. But just her perspective on how much that they're struggling against like EIA and the spread of that, not through flies, but through iatrogenic methods. So, that one was really enlightening for me. So, she let me in on all like, there's some stuff going on that we really need to be aware of.

 

Katy Starr (19:49):

Can you touch on EIA? Can you touch on that just a bit?

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (19:53):

Yeah, so Equine Infectious Anemia, that's the one. Remember there's no vaccine, no cure. And that's why we get our Coggins every year. And why people like me will turn you away if you don't have a current Coggins if you come to an event. And so we always used to talk about it as, you know, something that shared or spread by biting flies, etc. because it gets on their mouth parts and they pick it up from an infected horse, bring it to the other. But the major cause of spread now, at least in the U.S., is actually from humans using dirty equipment between horses. And a lot of that is like in the Bush leagues and the illegal racing. And so there's a lot of pharmaceuticals involved. And so things are shared between horses and that's how it's spread. And then within that community, obviously there's not a lot of checking in of Coggins one would say. And so that is what has caused some of the bigger outbreaks of EIA. And so, we're just really trying to drive them the message to people why we need you to test because it is cropping up a little bit more from those places.

 

Katy Starr (21:00):

Yeah, no, excellent. And I could totally concur with you on the fact that, and I feel like I, I'm in a lot of my episodes I'm that way because I love having people on that are way smarter than me when it comes to all these things. Because I feel like I get to kind of learn with our listeners sometimes on some of the things that we talk about. So, it's always so interesting to have someone on that's just like an expert in what they do and can share their knowledge, experience and really provide some really valuable information to the listeners on what they have going on. So, that's always good. So, what would you say has maybe been one of your most popular episode topics? Like think about if you want to have somebody come over and check out your podcast, what would you kind of recommend? Like, hey listeners really love this one, if you're going to come check it out, come start with this one.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (21:50):

So, there's still one that's the most downloaded, now I don't know why, but it is kind of a funny one. And that was one I did with my friend Dr. Joann Kouba. And that was teaching young male horses how to navigate the breeding shed. So, that one is still the number one

 

Katy Starr (22:07):

That is so interesting.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (22:09):

That's how you teach the boys on how to do things a little bit more artificially. So, that was a fun one. And then the other one I think, because a lot of people are reaching for answers was the one on fecal water syndrome.

 

Katy Starr (22:20):

Yes.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (22:21):

So, that one was pretty popular. And then Carey Dr. Carey Williams, we did a whole series on supplements and so those series were pretty popular as well. But for whatever reason, still the one that's “You want me to do what in the breeding shed?” is still number one

 

Katy Starr (22:37):

That is so funny. Oh my goodness. I haven't listened to that one, but I think I might have to just go check it out. .

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (22:45):

Add to the numbers why not.

 

Katy Starr (22:48):

Well we'll just give you some more downloads. .

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (22:50):

We like that.

 

Katy Starr (22:52):

That's awesome. Okay, so if you could share one piece of advice with horse owners, I mean, I know there's a lot that goes into horse ownership, there's a lot that's entailed with all of that. But if there's one thing that you kind of would like to leave our listeners with today sharing some practical advice that you think would be very helpful, what would that be?

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (23:11):

Oh man. One piece that's tough. There's a lot.

 

Katy Starr (23:14):

You pick a couple if you, if you want .

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (23:16):

Well, I'm going to give a plug for one of the project areas. We've really been working on some of my colleagues and I, and that is recognizing the emotional state of a horse and really kind of cluing into that and using that as a little bit more of a guidepost in how we train and manage them. So, that is one, I think that within the equine behavior community, they're really pushing. Like people just need to sometimes watch the animal and think about stop putting what we perceive on them and actually think about it a little bit from their standpoint. But that is the research area that I've been in.

 

Katy Starr (23:47):

Right?

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (23:47):

Lately, if I was going to do one piece of advice, man, I think it would probably be like almost the presentation at ESS, like stop relying on Facebook so much, or ads or things to try to solve your horse's problems and go to the people that truly have spent a lot of time and have a lot of years of experience under their belt and are objective, right? Mm-Hmm . That that's our job is to be objective about what's the best advice. And so I think a lot of people are still getting questionable information when we just use social media to do it. And then also you guys, you got to remember, everything's an algorithm on what pushes up on your feed and you know when things are deleted off of comments that really tell a real story. I think you got to be really savvy in navigating the google, well, I guess it's not even Googling these days or whatever information is accessible. So, really being smart and really paying attention to sources and using reliable, verifiable information, I think is, is going to be the next big huge navigation field for people.

 

Katy Starr (24:53):

Yeah, people often give advice because they want to, you know, there's good intentions with it, they want to be helpful, but I think so often they don't really come at it from, I don't know if I want to say unbiased, but objective is the word that you used where they have their situation, right? They have their horses that they're experienced with. Whereas when I see some of the professionals, whether it be extension, veterinarians, things like that, they have worked with so many different horse owners situations, their environments. So, while not everybody always has the answer all the time, I think they're able to better help you through some issues because they may have seen it before in a very similar situation to you as you're a similar horse. Like they might draw from some banks there that they have that other people though, they have good intentions, they don't always ask those questions.

 

Katy Starr (25:46):

That's one thing that I've always noticed. Sometimes when people put out their issue that they have or something like that and the comments come flooding in, it's never like, oh, well how much does your horse weigh? Is it overweight? Is it underweight? Do they have any of these underlying conditions? That's one thing that I have learned a lot about working with Standlee and then also working with a lot of the equine professionals that I've been around is you can't just give an answer to something when somebody asks you a question. You often will actually ask some more questions before you can even give a good solid answer. And so I just think that making sure that we can take all of that to really solve any kind of problems that people have, I just think it's a little bit more helpful in the long run. It's just going to be better for your horse. So, Dr. Hiney, how can our listeners stay connected with you after this episode?

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (26:38):

Well, you certainly could go find Tack Box Talk and listen to all of our podcasts there. So, as you said, I tend to try to find industry professionals and get their take on different things of interest. So, you'll hear a lot from my Extension horses group on that. And I'm always happy, like if you want to directly email me, I guess I can say that out loud, that's fine. So, you can email me at khiney@okstate.edu, so that's K-H-I-N-E-Y@okstate.edu for Oklahoma State. So, more than happy to answer questions for people or get them connected with their best professional in their area as well.

 

Katy Starr (27:19):

Excellent. And I'll be sure to include all that in the show notes so listeners can find that easy. And to our listeners, thank you so much for being on with us today. If you guys have questions, if you have topic ideas, please reach out to me at podcast@standlee.com. We love to hear from you and hear what you guys are interested in learning more about. And Dr. Hiney, thanks so much for being on with us today.

 

Dr. Kris Hiney (27:42):

You bet. Anytime.

 

Katy Starr (27:44):

I hope you enjoyed our 100th episode with Dr. Kris Hiney. This milestone is really about you, our listeners who show up every other week to learn, grow, and care for your horses and livestock in the best way possible. Your support, your feedback, and the way that you share Beyond the Barn with friends is what keeps this podcast alive. As a small thank you for being part of this community, we're giving away some Standlee free product coupons and swag to enter just screenshot to show us that you're following Beyond the Barn on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And email it to me at podcast@standlee.com. That's it. I'll drop the email link in our show notes so it's easy to find. This podcast wouldn't be here without you, so thank you for being the heart of Beyond the Barn, and here's to the next 100 conversations together. Thanks for listening to The Beyond the Barn podcast by Standlee Forage. We'd love for you to share our podcast with your favorite people and subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite listening platform. Until next time, keep your cinch tight and don't forget to turn off the water.