Ep. 097: Packing with a Purpose - How Mountain Mule Packers Became Unexpected Heroes

Episode Notes

On this episode, host Katy Starr chats with Mike Toberer, founder of Mountain Mule Packers and Mission Mules about:
 

• Unique differences between horses and mules on tough terrain
• The worst mistake new packers make and how to avoid it
• How their efforts in the Hurricane Helene response changed their purpose

From his early days navigating the Sierra Nevada Mountains to training elite military teams and delivering life-saving supplies after Hurricane Helene, Mike shares how mules do more than carry gear, they carry purpose.

🎧 Listen now on the Beyond the Barn podcast

Have a topic idea or feedback to share? We want to connect with you! Email podcast@standlee.com

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*Views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the view of Standlee Premium Products, LLC.*

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Other related podcast episodes – 

• Ep. 080: Why Every Horse Owner Needs an Emergency Disaster Plan: Expert Tips with Dr. Briana Hamamoto
• Ep. 066: Learning How to Hunt with Mules with Clay Newcomb
• Ep. 030: Donkeys, Mules and Hinnies, Oh My! How Their Nutrition Is Different

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Connect with Mike and the Mountain Mule Packer/Mission Mules team – 

• Facebook - @mountainmulepackersranch  | @missionmules
• Instagram - @mountainmulepackers  | @missionmules
• TikTok - @mountainmulepackerranch  | @mountainmule
• YouTube - @MissionMules

Website - 

https://missionmules.org/  |  https://mountainmulepackers.com/

Read full episode transcript

Katy Starr (00:01):

Hi, I'm Katy Starr and you're listening to Beyond the Barn. Join me on this journey as we bust equine and livestock nutrition myths and sit down with some of the most intriguing experts from across the country. We'll also take you behind the scenes of how premium western quality forage is grown and brought to your favorite farm and ranch retail store. I'm so glad you're here. Welcome back to another episode of Beyond the Barn. We are so excited to have our next guest on today. Our next guest is the man leading the Mountain Mule Packers and Mission Mules out of North Carolina. Mike's been working with horses and mules for decades, training everyone from hunters to military teams and using those skills to deliver supplies in difficult terrain and environments like after Hurricane Helene. We'd like to welcome Mike Toberer to the Beyond the Barn podcast. So, thanks for joining us today, Mike.

 

Mike Toberer (00:59):

Yes ma'am. Thank you for having me.

 

Katy Starr (01:01):

So, kind of just to get us started and help us understand a little bit about your background and kind of where all this started from, can you share a little bit with us about where you grew up and your background with horses and mules?

 

Mike Toberer (01:15):

Yeah, I grew up in California. We packed into Sierra Nevada mountains and over there there's quite a few pack outfits, a lot more going on than on say on the East Coast here. And that's where I started and grew up. And then as I got older I worked for a couple of the pack stations there. That taught me quite a bit, pretty much everything and I just loved doing it and just kept doing it. And then an opportunity to work with the military came up and we tried for it. Ended up coming out to North Carolina and doing some work.

 

Katy Starr (01:47):

That is so awesome. Horses and mules – was that in your family upbringing as a kid?

 

Mike Toberer (01:52):

Yeah, we had horses. We didn't have a lot of mules but we had quite a few horses.

 

Katy Starr (01:56):

In that case. What led you to the path, because I know you have a little bit of both, but right now it seems like mules are your main thing. So, how did that happen?

 

Mike Toberer (02:05):

Just as working, going up into the mountains and looking what the other people had that like the pack stations that were up there, they all ran mules and what I found is just I got along better with the mules more so than with the horses now we do ride horses, we'll ride a mare a lot of times so that the mules will mother up and follow. They're just easier to handle.

 

Katy Starr (02:25):

Okay, that makes sense. You mentioned that you were heavily involved in the Sierra Nevada Mountains and what brought you east was a contract with the military because you brought your whole family with you and you just picked up and moved across the country. Yeah,

 

Mike Toberer (02:38):

Yeah, we did. It wasn't actually a contract, it was just opportunity to work. And we came and took a chance on it and came out and here we are.

 

Katy Starr (02:46):

Nice. Yeah, that's quite a change for you. What have you noticed that's been I guess, the most different environment wise between you know, west coast versus the east coast?

 

Mike Toberer (02:56):

The size of the mountains is the biggest thing. Yeah, the mountains out here on the east coast are quite a bit smaller, a lot more bush, harder to work through. Where in California we had a lot of rock and open areas. I really miss my mountains in California.

 

Katy Starr (03:11):

Oh. I have family that used to hunt in the Sierra Nevada mountains and grew up in California and everything. And so yeah, it's steep but pretty country over there. 

 

Mike Toberer (03:21):

It is, very nice. Yeah.

 

Katy Starr (03:22):

In what ways would you say that working with mules and horses has influenced your family's values and lifestyle? Because what you do is kind of a family business and your kids are very involved with the rodeo lifestyle and everything. So, how has that kind of influenced those things for you?

 

Mike Toberer (03:39):

Starting out, it's just the fact that when you have this many animals they just have to be taken care of. And then if I am out working, then the kids when my wife would have to pick up the slack on it, working together as a family I think is probably what came out of it the most to me.

 

Katy Starr (03:55):

Yeah, that's nice. Especially these days I feel like that's not something that people are running around so much they don't always get to do. So, when you have something that's your livelihood and lifestyle that brings you together as a family, I think that's really amazing.

 

Mike Toberer (04:09):

That's pretty cool.

 

Katy Starr (04:10):

That's awesome. In your experience, so you said that you will often ride a mare because they're a little bit easier to handle, but in your experience, what would you say is probably the biggest difference or differences between a horse and a mule?

 

Mike Toberer (04:27):

I didn't say the mare was easier to handle .

 

Katy Starr (04:30):

Oh, .

 

Mike Toberer (04:31):

The mule's mother up to those mares quite a bit. So, if you take that mare somewhere as the mules don't necessarily have to be in a string, but they'll still follow.

 

Katy Starr (04:40):

Okay, that makes sense.

 

Mike Toberer (04:41):

The biggest difference I think between the horses and the mules that I've noticed is just, you know, of course they got a little different gait, but when you're moving through like rocks that are real slick or angled, the mules tend to be able to put their back feet a little bit better in place than the horses with a little more control. Yeah. And I think just overall that where we work especially that's real important because these animals, they will slip and go down from time to time. And what I found with between a horse and a mule is a horse will flail more where a mule goes down, he'll just give him a minute and he'll work his way back up a little calmer.

 

Katy Starr (05:18):

Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't have as big of a freak out in the moment that's happening. Yeah, that is so interesting.

 

Mike Toberer (05:25):

Well, it is, especially if you're strung together and you have 4, 5, 6 mules, you don't want one flopping around, tangling up with everything in front and behind it. So, if they can just go down and get back up or get in the bogs and work their way out, calm, everybody stays calm.

 

Katy Starr (05:41):

Yeah. And you don't want to make a bad situation worse. So, especially that far out sometimes I think as, as far out as you get.

 

Mike Toberer (05:50):

Well that's the thing, if you're out there, especially like when we were working California, you'd be six, eight hours in, so that means if something happened you'd have to go six, eight hours out, get somebody to send something in to help you.

 

Katy Starr (06:03):

Yeah.

 

Mike Toberer (06:04):

Yeah. You want to just try to keep everything as smooth and calm as you possibly can.

 

Katy Starr (06:08):

Right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What would you say makes for a good pack mule or I mean even pack horse, are there any particular traits that you look for when you're working with the animals?

 

Mike Toberer (06:23):

Just you look for a gentle eye in both of them. Like for what we want, just like I said, we don't want anything that's wide-eyed that's, we need calm, we need steady. When you're selecting one, that's the first thing you look for. You want one, this looks softer in the eye.

 

Katy Starr (06:38):

And of the ones that you have, I mean, because you've done this for years and so is this, I mean obviously a lot of this probably comes with years and experience on the animals, but do you ever find that there's, I guess either better docility or anything like that with the age or have you had some younger ones that just seem like they have the knack for exactly what you're wanting to do and what you're wanting to accomplish?

 

Mike Toberer (07:06):

Yeah, we've had both. We've had a very, not a lot, but a few younger ones that just got it faster and they still had to go through the learning process but it was just faster. As far as like with the mules as they get older, if they were a good mule when they were younger and middle aged, when they're older they're even better because the whole struggling and fighting is they've learned how to go around that.

 

Katy Starr (07:30):

Yeah, that's excellent. And how long does it take, I mean obviously every animal's different and this answer could probably vary, but about how long would you say that it takes to fully train a mule for the kind of work that your teams do? Especially when you are having to go through extreme terrain or like disaster zones as you've been doing as of recent months?

 

Mike Toberer (07:53):

Well, you start working mules when they're about three years old, sometimes a little longer, but if you could have two to three years of training on them from the time you start, so that puts them at five or six that usually will get you what you need to be. And then every year that goes by they'll just keep getting better. But you'll know by then whether you're going to hang on to them or if they will get better.

 

Katy Starr (08:16):

Yeah. Or if you have to see if you can pass them on to maybe a better family and better situation and lifestyle probably. Excellent. In your experience what, because I'm sure you've, especially when you're in the Sierra Nevada mountains and working with different groups and things like that, what would you say is probably the worst mistake that new packers make when they're starting out on this same type of journey?

 

Mike Toberer (08:45):

What I've seen is that the fact that they don't do their homework, they don't get their mules working the way they should before they go up and then they get into those rocks and nastier situations, it's dangerous for you and the mules. I see that probably was the biggest thing I noticed is people went up on their stock unprepared, unconditioned very important when you get up like in the elevation, especially out west, you have to have your horses conditioned because a lot of these guys will have come up from the valley up to 6,000 feet. So, that makes a difference. They have to be fed. Right. And then when they get up to the mountains, you have to give them some time to acclimate, but you just have to have them in the best shape you can and try to just go through some packing, moving them around just to make sure you've done your homework.

 

Katy Starr (09:30):

Yeah. It sounds like it also takes a lot of patience then to be able to not rush it. I'm sure that that is probably partially to blame with some of those situations is just thinking you can get out quicker than you need to be and in the long run that doesn't seem like that's probably the best idea.

 

Mike Toberer (09:47):

You're right. I've tried that a few times.

 

Katy Starr (09:50):

learned the hard way. . Okay. So, what would you say is probably one old school packing technique that still holds up that you like to use and then maybe a newer innovation that you have embraced with the Mountain Mule Packers program?

 

Mike Toberer (10:07):

You know, I like the Sawbuck Saddle that's been around forever and I liked what we use. We use this probably 80% of the time - the box hitch. Those two things are old school as far as the newer stuff working with the military, we've had different apparatuses that we attach to the saddles. There's clips and clamps and different things that you generally wouldn't use on a recreational pack trip, but when you're moving weapons they have to be held certain ways. Scopes and optics on them have to be protected. So, we have different things that we use to, but it's more the new gadgets to hold things in place.

 

Katy Starr (10:44):

I bet. And can you explain to me what the box hitch is?

 

Mike Toberer (10:48):

Yeah, the box hitch is just a knot that you tie to secure the loads.

 

Katy Starr (10:53):

Okay.

 

Mike Toberer (10:53):

And the way this thing is designed, almost at the very end of it, when you do one of your final pulls, it actually will lift the box off of their ribs a little bit. So, it takes, takes the pressure off and then you tie it off from there.

 

Katy Starr (11:08):

Excellent. Okay. Thank you. I myself am not super experienced in packing or any of that. We have a lot of hunters in our family and friends and stuff that like to go do packing for hunting and things like that, but that's why I find this to be so interesting, just the versatility that you have to have too in your business. Because like we've talked about a little bit, you've had your hands in a little bit of everything with things that you've helped with and supported with. I mean I feel like it also goes to show that it's one of those things where you don't want it to die off because of the value that it offers. Right. And I feel like that's something, especially this last fall we really saw come into play with the disasters and things like that is just knowing that you're not always going to be able to get where you need to get to places. But you know what tried and true methods don't let those go by the wayside.

 

Mike Toberer (12:06):

I agree. I agree. Yeah, because we definitely, there's not as many pack outfits as there was out west. A lot of the old timers aren't able to pass it on. A lot of the, a lot less younger people coming into it. So, we do have to do whatever we can to preserve it.

 

Katy Starr (12:22):

Right.

 

Mike Toberer (12:23):

It will die out.

 

Katy Starr (12:25):

Well, I mean I think about that and I think about like trades and things like that too, just with kind of the western lifestyle and in general and things like that. I'm assuming there's probably organizations and things like that that like to put on educational opportunities to help those that maybe would want to see the, like try it out, see if packing something that they might be interested in and give them that skillset a little bit.

 

Mike Toberer (12:49):

Yeah, there's schools all out west, so most all pack stations offer schools. But I'll tell you, there's some events that go on like in California, Bishop, it's called Bishop Mule Days.

 

Katy Starr (13:00):

Okay.

 

Mike Toberer (13:00):

If you want to learn and get exposed to packing and there's several pack outfits there, thousands of competitors and there's everything that you can possibly think of to do with mule packing, from training to equipment to buying animals is right there. It's, it's a great thing. And then out here in the east they have the Columbia Mule Show, which is another big one. And it doesn't have as much packing, it has more what we do out here, but still it's the teamsters and all that we kind of in the same boat, you know? So, we try to promote both of those.

 

Katy Starr (13:31):

Nice. That's excellent. And when it comes to packing, what would you say is probably the most underrated piece of tack, in your mind?

 

Mike Toberer (13:42):

Most underrated piece of tack. I'd have to say the pad, we use a five-star pad. They're one inch and an eighth felt. And we really like those. We've used a lot of different other types of pad and blanket combos, that sort of thing, homemade type stuff. But the pads, I think people don't put enough emphasis on that, but without the pad, because if you have a good pad, it'll seat, right. It'll fit your mule right. So, you keep the pad for the mule, the pad for that same saddle and then everything just kind of locks in as time goes on. And I feel that that's the most underrated.

 

Katy Starr (14:19):

Well, and I would assume probably bring more comfort to the animal through all of what they're trying to do, because it's not like they're just walking along on a path with all the jolts and jaunts and everything of trying to move around.

 

Mike Toberer (14:34):

Just the fact that it's dead weight makes it hard for them.

 

Katy Starr (14:37):

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And this answer is probably going to be different versus what you used to do maybe in California, but I'd be interested to know for both. How long generally are your pack trips and how does that impact how you manage their nutrition when you're out on trail?

 

Mike Toberer (14:56):

Yeah, like out west, the packed trips were longer. A lot of times we'd do week long, like five day, four night, five day trips. And then out here the mountains are smaller, the wilderness areas are smaller. So, if you do a two or three dayer, they're usually like a fishing trip. That's about the duration of those. But what we found, you know, we packed in a lot of different feeds and the big deal up here is you need weed free feed. So, we do that. But so we'll bring in like your processed pellets, the alfalfa. Because all of our animals are on alfalfa. So, when we go to the mountains, we don't necessarily take hay, we'll take pellets in some areas. We will take the hay, the compressed bales that Standlee makes are handy because they're a little bit smaller than what you would get from a feed store. But they fit in our pack boxes and a pack bags, which makes it nice when you send a team off to go recover a door bundle that's been dropped by a helicopter full of hay.

 

Katy Starr (15:50):

That's so awesome. Because honestly, I didn't even know if you guys used Standlee or not. I wanted to have you on because of just your story and everything. And so I am so glad to hear that the certified noxious weed free forage that Standlee provides has been helpful and convenient because that's the other aspect of it is you're trying to get a lot in a smaller space packed on an animal. Yeah, no, that's awesome. I love that. How do you happen to balance the workload among your mule string when you're going out?

 

Mike Toberer (16:23):

When you're just working a regular outfit, you'll run these things four or five days in a row and then you rest them. And it can be anywhere from two days rest to four or five days rest. It just, you have to know your stock, you just pay attention to them because you don't want them getting wore down. So, the trick is to have enough stock to where you can rotate out as needed. But generally four or five days. Now when we were started working the storm, it was a different deal. We worked them a lot longer because we just had so much to do and we started watching them and then they got to a point to where we came, we had to start rotating out. And then that kind of cut what we produced as far as getting supplies out that cut that down. But we just had to rest them. And then we had some people that loaned us some mules and things that kind of helped with that process.

 

Katy Starr (17:14):

That's awesome. How many do you tend to take out with you on your rides at a time?

 

Mike Toberer (17:21):

Depends what the job is. Like. If we take, say we're doing just a fishing trip, we will take, and there's two people on this trip, so we'll take like four mules out, which will cover all their stuff, our feed. And then if we're staying with them, we'll have that extra mule. If we don't, then it'll just be three mules.

 

Katy Starr (17:39):

How many were you having to take out when you were doing the hurricane relief efforts? How many would you have out with you at a time for that?

 

Mike Toberer (17:48):

We worked nine right off the bat and then we started to rotate them as they got tired and bring in other ones to rest. And then like if we're doing a training for, say like the military, we'll take out 15 mules just for the soldiers, but they're not strung together. Each one of them is being led by a soldier and that's his mule for the week long training. So, everything that that mule requires is given to them by the soldier. So, we'll take a bigger number out.

 

Katy Starr (18:15):

Yeah. No, that makes sense. Okay. And have you ever had to manage a medical emergency for one of your animals? Like deep in the back country or anywhere?

 

Mike Toberer (18:28):

We have, not life threatening, but we've had to sew some horses and some mules up over the years. Weird stuff like hauling up to the trailhead, they'll hurt their lips or something, it'll get tore. So, we'd have to sew things. But in the back country you would get little cuts. But every now and then you would, because you'll get scrapes because you work in rocks and you work in brush. Right. But every now and then, if you have something happen, they'll get a pretty good gouge and you have to clean it and sew it up. But other than that, it hasn't been anything real serious.

 

Katy Starr (18:59):

That's good. That's really great to hear. What would you say then, are your go-to items that you have? Because you probably have like a little emergency kit or something that you pack with you. What's kind of your go-to items in that that you make sure that you always have with you on those trips?

 

Mike Toberer (19:16):

You always have bute for the bangs and the bumps and the bruises that they'll get. And then the banamine. So, what they call it, you'll want to do that. And then just your basic materials, like your furazone, your peroxide to clean out wounds to iodine, some swabs, that sort of thing.

 

Katy Starr (19:33):

Yeah. Excellent. And what would you say, I mean you've had a lot of years of experience packing in many different types of situations, but what is one moment on the trail that you can think back in your mind that has probably been the most challenging or kind of has pushed you to your limits when you've been out?

 

Mike Toberer (19:54):

I'll say pushing in the snow or in the early season out west in California, the snow pack would, in some places was 30 foot. So, around June, July, then they would start to thaw except for your north slopes would keep a lot of snow. So, just getting, and you're out there by yourself just working through snowstorms. And that is probably the most challenging thing because it covers up the feed because the feed out there you'll bring in a certain amount with you, but you still have to graze them. If you hit a meadow, you need to graze your stock to let them get some of that. And that all gets taken away when it starts snowing. So, I'd have to say that and the freezing temperatures.

 

Katy Starr (20:33):

In the snow, I'm curious, I imagine especially with snow coverage, it might be harder for the animals to navigate their footing because they can't exactly see what might be beneath the snow sometimes.

 

Mike Toberer (20:46):

Yeah. That's the main thing about it. That's tricky. And that's where a good seasoned animal where if he goes and he steps and he happens to break through to another level, they won't panic. They'll just keep moving through there. Because sometimes you'll be crossing over and they'll be like a small creek under you. And it's not something that's going to take and put you underwater, but it's going to get you stuck. And so if they panic and break off more ice, then you don't get out. So, yeah, seasoned animals and cold weather are the best combination.

 

Katy Starr (21:20):

Mm-Hmm . And you've obviously worked through natural disasters, military training, some deep wilderness routes and everything. In all those years, we talked about kind of your challenging, what has been your proudest moment with your team of equines?

 

Mike Toberer (21:38):

Up until the storm, it was just the fact that I was working with special forces that where they took what we had to offer and could actually use it and they wanted more of it. I was very proud of the fact that that happened, but since the storm and I'd never want to do it again. Right. But I think just being out there doing what we did, I was proud of that. It's kind of a weird deal. Like I said, you never want to do that again. You don't wish that on anybody. But I did. I think I grew a lot and I feel very proud of, of being able to help what little I did.

 

Katy Starr (22:12):

Right. Well, and I think I mentioned this a little bit when I was talking to your wife before about getting this set up because she's a big part of this program that you do as well. But in my mind when I see, I see what you guys did, I mean, you did such wonderful work and honestly heroic efforts with trying to help people and get them the survival things that they needed. But the fact that you were able to elevate it to where people didn't know, some people didn't even know it was happening, but I think they did because of the fact that nobody could get in there or would go in there and you were like, Hey, I have mules. I can get in there. I can get to these places that we can't get to. And I think it just brought so much attention to what people in that area were experiencing that never would've been otherwise. And so that was I think, really amazing part of it as well.

 

Mike Toberer (23:10):

Thank you.

 

Katy Starr (23:11):

So, tell us, we've touched on this a little bit as we've kind of introduced this and everything, but tell us a little bit about Mountain Mule Packers, because I think this is what you established when you came out east. So, what is this organization all about? Like what is your goal with that?

 

Mike Toberer (23:31):

Yeah, Mountain Mule Packers, I started that in 2012 and that's when we moved from west coast to east coast. And the whole reason for doing that was to come work with the military. And we got out here, we moved over to a town called Rayford, North Carolina, close to Fort Bragg. And that's where we started working with the military. And then it evolved from there. We started working with the Army. We worked, went out with Navy, Air Force, Marines, we do a lot of Marine Corps work, MARSOC. And then we got into working with the teams, the specialty teams. And that's kind of where the majority of our business is. It just kind of fit because Afghanistan was still going when we came out here. And we had a platform and we were one of the only people out on the east coast that did this sort of thing. We had some good luck there. And then two years into it, Obama sequestered the military and then almost put us all out of business. And we stuck it out and we just kept doing what we had to do and then it picked back up again and it's been going good ever since. And we've been doing that, like I said, since 2012.

 

Katy Starr (24:38):

And so you talked about obviously like moving around military weapons and things like that. But can you briefly touch on some of the trainings that you do with them? Like obviously basic level, what kind of experience are you providing to the military team members with the mules?

 

Mike Toberer (24:57):

Experience, the training that we're giving them, basically it's, we treat everybody as if they had no experience with large animals, pack mules, pack horses, donkeys, whatever. We have a beginning course and then everything just kind of graduates up. They call it the crawl, walk, run.

 

Katy Starr (25:14):

Okay.

 

Mike Toberer (25:14):

Theory or concept. But that's pretty much what it is. And when it's all done, we end up in the mountains on a six day to ten day pack trip. And it covers depend on what the teams are like in the beginning we moved strictly weapons crew, what's called crew served weapons. And our biggest gun was the one 20 millimeter mortar. The coolest gun we ever packed was an MK 47 grenade gun. And then it's evolved after Afghanistan closed out. Then we started doing more jungle type training. And then we work with Space Force a little bit and we'll do like satellites, we'll do a lot of communications equipment.

 

Katy Starr (25:51):

Okay.

 

Mike Toberer (25:52):

Yeah. And that's been real popular. And we do big Marines also with combo teams that'll bring 15, 16 guys and they have all sorts of different equipment. So, the equipment's changed over the last 12 years.

 

Katy Starr (26:05):

Right. Yeah.

 

Mike Toberer (26:07):

But it's still just

 

Katy Starr (26:07):

To kind of fit how things have adjusted in the world and everything. That's so interesting though. Yeah,

 

Mike Toberer (26:13):

It really is. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Katy Starr (26:15):

Okay.

 

Mike Toberer (26:15):

That's so cool. Yeah, like some of the comms equipment, the majority of what we can see and we can kind of watch as they do their stuff. But then there's sometimes we get there and once we get it off to mules, we have to be out of that area while they set up and do their business.

 

Katy Starr (26:32):

Yeah.

 

Mike Toberer (26:33):

Yeah. But it's cool. But we'll take in like everything revolves around batteries. Everything works off batteries, so you have to have charged batteries. Generators are what they'll use if they have them. But one of our classes is called alternative fuels. And basically we have windmills generators that go in the creeks, hand crank, solar panels, we pack all that in and then they just practice using that. Okay. And then at certain times they got to send out messages or whatever, but it's it, it's pretty interesting really.

 

Katy Starr (27:02):

Yeah. That's so cool. And then Mission Mules was born out of Mountain Mule Packers and Hurricane Helene and all of that that went on. So, can you explain a little bit more about the heart behind this nonprofit that you guys started?

 

Mike Toberer (27:20):

When we started this, we just went to help and we didn't figure we would be gone more than a week, two at the most. And we were there like 22 days right off the top. And as donations and things came in, we had no choice. We either had to find somebody that could, we could send the money and the resources we're getting in to help. And as we checked into that, a lot of them were just wanting to take more than we thought was necessary. Right off the top. We were trying to decide when do we quit doing this, but we did know that if we stayed in it, we could do a better job with that, getting more out of the money than the people we were looking to give it to. That's how it got started. And it's been going ever since like that. And it's growing good. And you know, we're always looking for volunteers. We're building some swift water rescue teams, some drone teams.

 

Katy Starr (28:10):

Oh, that's so good. Yeah.

 

Mike Toberer (28:12):

And like the high angle extractions, those sort of things.

 

Katy Starr (28:15):

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. You handle obviously a lot of the animals in this process. Michele, your wife, she does a lot of like helping plan logistics and things like that.

 

Mike Toberer (28:29):

Pretty much all of that. Yeah. There's actually quite a bit involved to keep this going. We have another lady that works for the nonprofit full time. And then my wife, she works for my company. And then of course I work for my company also. We just got our number finalized with the IRS. But yeah, she pretty much handles that. And the logistics in the beginning was just was crazy because we would literally get a thousand messages a day. So, they were trying to figure out where to send us. So, her and Karen, the girl that works with us, they started consolidating zip codes and developing a system so they could kind of send us to where they thought would the most help us need. And that was hard on them because we could only be so many places, so. But yeah, she handles all the hard stuff.

 

Katy Starr (29:17):

Right. That wasn't even a, obviously a planned thing. It's like, oh, here it is. And just probably working on the fly with that and trying to navigate as you go with everything that's happening. So, Yeah. I can't imagine. But it's so great that you guys were there to help and be there at that time, right? Like that's so good. Yeah. Yeah. So, your packing work has supported everyone, obviously from hunters and firefighters to special operations teams in the military. Why are the training and impact, why is it so meaningful to you personally?

 

Mike Toberer (29:54):

As far as the military side of it, it's just the fact that everybody wants to be a soldier and be a special ops guy. But it takes special people to do that. And I could get into that, but really for me it's just my way of, I feel like I'm in the fight trying to just because our country, I believe has come down to good and evil. The politics set aside, that's what it is. And I feel like if I can help our guys be more efficient on the ground, be a combat multiplier, then I feel good about being able to help that way. So, that's very important. And then with the storm, like I said, I'll never want to do that again. But if you help some people, you know, there's a lot you couldn't help and that's hard. But the ones you do, eventually you will feel good about it because you did it for the right reasons. It's just such a hard deal man. It's a bittersweet situation, you know?

 

Katy Starr (30:44):

Yeah. When you explain that, that's not something that I thought of from that perspective, but you living it, I mean that's such an interesting take on that to kind of hear your experience from having to kind of help and get through that disaster. You had mentioned that your wife and Karen had kind of, when the hurricane hit, they kind of had to figure out zip codes and stuff to kind of plan. But walk us a little bit through the logistics to mobilize quickly after it happened and kind of what was like your base camp like and set up? How did you go to where you needed to go, go out, come back, resupply, go to a new spot? Like what did that look like?

 

Mike Toberer (31:26):

When it started, we actually had a training down in South Carolina with some MARSC, some marine guys. That we do a couple times a year. And because of the storm and the flooding, it got canceled. So, we literally had a trailer full of mules, enough supplies for the mules, enough supplies for me and my guys for a week to be out in the field. And we'd lost power where we lived. And about 18 hours later it came on and we were watching the news and we saw what they were calling the inaccessible areas and the things that were going on. And it was a no brainer for us. What we moved through the mountains with the military, we basically had to convert over to moving food and supplies, water and food basically was everything. So, we happened to be ready to go to mobilize and leave the next day just because we were already ready by chance.

 

Mike Toberer (32:17):

And then from there we got to Montreat, North Carolina and we had got called by another group that was up there that does relief work and they asked if our mules could do this, take this insulin and ice up the mountain, two - there was a few, I think there were three households. They had their insulin, two of them did, but they needed ice because they had no power and the other needed both. That was our first job. We did that. And then pretty much from there we packed up and we would take our leads and we'd go as far as we could get the trucks and trailers because the roads were gone. And so you get as far as you can and that's where you punch down your camp. And sometimes it would just literally be, if there was a nice patch of grass on the side of the road, you would actually park on the road, but the mules could stand tied to the trailer and the grass.

 

Mike Toberer (33:08):

That was the main thing we're looking for is good footing at night. Because we worked a lot in the beginning on asphalt in these subdivisions where the roads had collapsed in and there were little tread trails on each side of the road. But other than that, no wider than a foot or two. So, they worked on the pavement quite a bit. So, we tried to rest them where we could. And pretty much I cooked up a bunch of meat and we just ate meat when we were hungry and we drank water when we were thirsty. And that's how we ran the first week until we ran out of meat .

 

Katy Starr (33:40):

Yeah.

 

Mike Toberer (33:40):

So, not thinking we actually ran out of our food and nobody was watching it. And then we literally were at a point where we'd emptied a whole trailer and didn't keep any food for us . So, yeah. But it was interesting, another group comes by and just seen what we were doing and asked if we could use anything. And we said, you got any food? And they said, we got hot dogs, they give us a bunch of hot dogs. And then we cooked hot dogs with a blowtorch and that's what we had . Then once we got to our second phase, my wife had us a fresh set of supplies and we knew more what to expect. But she took care of all that for us.

 

Katy Starr (34:14):

Yeah. Now I could imagine initially that it was just kind of a cluster because nobody knows exactly what's going on, what's happening. I mean, all those unknowns I think just make it so much more challenging. Yeah.

 

Mike Toberer (34:29):

This wasn't our business. We have never done any disaster response at all. And that was the biggest thing I saw was the intel on the ground. There was none mm-hmm. Until some of the major players got in there like Samaritan's Purse. But they come a few days later. Or the United Cajun Navy, they're another one that's great with logistics and that. 

 

Mike Toberer (34:49):

But yeah, that's why we're putting together like our sawyer teams, our swift water rescue, because you know, we felt like God has showed us that we recognize, okay, we can do a better job responding. So, now with our teams that we're building, we want to have actually a team on the ground. Say we're watching a storm, come into, say the Ozark Mountains and they got an idea when it's going to hit. So, we'll go ahead and mobilize our assessment team out, which is usually two to four guys. And they will go as far as they can safely punch down for the night. And then as soon as the storm clears, they'll go the rest of the way in. They'll be first on the ground, then they'll let us know where the mules need to go, if they need to go, which ways to go around, that sort of thing. So, that's why we have started a nonprofit, like I said, with the other team, the specialty teams to search and rescue.

 

Katy Starr (35:40):

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Mike Toberer (35:41):

We feel that we should be able to make a difference. We'd like to have our intel on the ground to share with everybody else by the second day.

 

Katy Starr (35:49):

Yeah. That's excellent. And your team experienced its own devastation earlier this year with the loss of some of your string - Vader, Amigo, and Kev from a tree that came down on your guys' pasture fence one night. How have you guys been able to overcome a loss of not only such trusted partners in your mission and members of your family, but the years of experience that they brought to, you know, Mission Mules and Mountain Mule Packers?

 

Mike Toberer (36:24):

Yeah, they got out and got hit and you know, my wife and I were getting to the point that laid into it is like, when does it end? When do we go back and to our work and what we did before and just our regular lives. And then when them three animals got killed that night, I went home and took care of everything. She came back from the mountains and we were talking that we think this is it. This is how it, I think this is our sign to start pulling out of this. You did what you could. And then the next day Samaritan's Purse called us up and we had met them early on in the storm. They, we had helicopters and they would do airdrops that we would feed off of to deliver our supplies. And that's how we got linked up with them.

 

Mike Toberer (37:10):

And didn't really think much about any of that because we went different directions and different areas. But they called up and said, Hey, we'd want to help you. And they started asking, you know, about the mules and the horses. And we told them and we thought, that's great. You know, they, you're going to help us with the mule that puts us back. And they said, no, we want to help you. We want to replace everything that got killed. So, they put us right back into business by 10 days later. We were back where we started. Now they weren't. Now we are working through, we have more mules since then, but they were all new mules, younger mules. So, we're going through the training process right now and they're coming in. We just have to go slow because since Helene, we've been in February, we were in West Virginia working up there when it was freezing and flooding. And then we've been to West Virginia twice and Maryland once. We've done five different natural disasters since Helene, if you can believe that. 

 

Katy Starr (38:08):

Yeah. That's so crazy.

 

Mike Toberer (38:09):

It really is. And the jobs have been a little smaller, so we can take those mules, spend a little more time putting them with some seasoned mules. So, that's helped us a little bit. Yeah. But yeah, it's hard to replace 10, 12 years. Some of these mules came with us from California.

 

Katy Starr (38:27):

Yeah.

 

Mike Toberer (38:28):

And we're trained out there. So, we got a lot of time invested in them and they've learned a lot of stuff in that time. So, to replace them, it's, we're feeling it, but we'll get it done.

 

Katy Starr (38:38):

Yeah. And how are they settling in? You said that you're kind of working with them matching up with some of your more seasoned mules to

 

Mike Toberer (38:46):

Kind of, they they're settling. Yeah, they're doing fine. Yeah. They get along and that's the main thing. They get along pretty good. So, now it's just a matter of giving them a job to do. Yeah. And then they will kind of hone in on that and just do their part. They're really amazing animals actually.

 

Katy Starr (39:01):

I feel like they do really well when they have a job that's like, because it's like what they were almost like what they were made for. Yeah.

 

Mike Toberer (39:08):

Well like us, you know, you want a purpose. Right,

 

Katy Starr (39:11):

Right. Yeah. No, that's so true. That's so true. What is the most important thing that horses and mules have taught you in your life so far?

 

Mike Toberer (39:23):

Patience. . Mm-Hmm . Yeah. Mules especially. You can't really be too heavy handed with a mule. You will set your training back years literally. But I guess that the patience is like the obvious thing, but just there's a certain type of people that have horses, certain type of people that have mules. And for the most part, I like the mentality that goes with that. The mindset. We're kind like-minded that way. But yeah, just that.

 

Katy Starr (39:52):

Yeah. No, that's excellent. And then as we're kind of getting closer to wrapping up, what advice would you give to anyone listening who maybe has an interest to begin learning to pack with mules? We talked about it being a little bit of a, unfortunately younger generations not probably quite as interested and we don't want this to die off. What advice would you have for anyone wanting to get into packing with mules?

 

Mike Toberer (40:19):

Okay. If you want to get into packing first thing, you have to be the type of person that likes the mountains, that likes to work by themselves. Just to like to be out by yourself. That's the first thing. You have to have that mindset. But secondly, get good instruction. There's guys like us, but then you could go to any pack outfit in the Sierra Nevada's out West Wyoming, Montana, Idaho. And you can find, they will train you there. They'll work your butt off and you pay them money to do it. But , when you're done, you know what you need to know to get by to get started. And then from that point on, it's just, it's a matter of how many times you go will determine how much you learn and how much better you get, because we can teach you the basics, how to not get hurt.

 

Mike Toberer (41:04):

And there's no guarantees on that. But for the most part, right. We can teach you what we know that kept us alive this long. And then it's just up to you just to do it. To, yeah. Overcome any fears you got of going into the back country by yourself or with somebody else. I don't recommend going by yourself, honestly. I do it. People I grew up with, we did it that way. And we'd meet up at different, but it was part of our job. You know, we had to do it like rolling at night and that sort of thing. It was our job, so we did it, but normally we wouldn't choose to do it. But yeah, so just get some good instruction and, and just start doing it.

 

Katy Starr (41:38):

That's excellent. And lastly, Mike, how can our listeners stay connected with you all after this episode?

 

Mike Toberer (41:46):

My company, Mountain Mule Packer Ranch, you could go to mountainmulepackers.com and that tells you everything about what we're doing with the military. Gives you a little information about our nonprofit. And then we have the nonprofit called Mission Mules. And we're a disaster response company. And you could get to us with missionmules.org. And that has, if you want to volunteer, donate, it kind of has a list of a lot of things that we have going on. And that's the best two ways to get ahold of us.

 

Katy Starr (42:16):

Excellent. And then I am planning to link your websites in our show notes, and I will also touch base with Michele later, make sure we get all of your guys' social channels linked there as well. Because I know a lot of people like to follow you guys and what you're doing on those social channels. And so Mike, I can't thank you enough for being here and sharing your experiences and all that you know about packing with our listeners today. So, thanks for being here.

 

Mike Toberer (42:47):

Yes ma'am. You're welcome.

 

Katy Starr (42:49):

Thanks for listening to the Beyond the Barn podcast by Standlee Forage. We'd love for you to share our podcast with your favorite people and subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite listening platform. Until next time, keep your cinch tight and don't forget to turn off the water.