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Ep. 079: Normal vs. Abnormal in Backyard Chickens - How to Know When Something is Wrong with Dr. Geoffrey Lossie

On this episode, co-host Katy Starr and guest expert Dr. Geoffrey Lossie discuss sourcing and caring for chicks, along with common diseases through different life stages and how to prevent them.

Episode Notes

On this episode, co-host Katy Starr and guest expert Dr. Geoffrey Lossie, a board-certified poultry veterinarian who works as an avian diagnostician at the Indiana Animal Disease Diagnostic Lab and clinical assistant professor at Purdue University College of Veterinary Medicine, discuss:


  • Top tips to properly prepare for bringing home new chicks 
  • How to identify signs and symptoms for the most common health issues in chickens and ways to prevent them
  • What to do when it’s difficult to find a specialized poultry veterinarian


The ability to identify what is normal for chickens allows poultry owners to know when something is abnormal and intervene sooner, if needed.


Whether you’re a seasoned chicken whisperer or a budding backyard chicken keeper, tune in to this jam-packed episode and how Dr. Lossie’s recommendation for "all-in, all-out" practices can revolutionize your chicken-raising game and help to raise happy, healthy hens.


Have a topic idea or feedback to share? We want to connect with you! Email



Stay connected with Dr. Geoffrey Lossie:



*Views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the view of Standlee Premium Products, LLC.*



Katy Starr (00:00:01):

Hi, I'm Katy.


Dr. Tania Cubitt (00:00:02):

And I'm Dr. Cubitt. We're going Beyond the Barn. Come join us on this journey as we bust equine and livestock nutrition myths, and interview some of the most intriguing experts in the country.


Katy Starr (00:00:15):

We'll go behind the scenes of how premium Western quality forage is grown and brought to your favorite farm and ranch retail store. We're so glad you're here. Welcome back to another episode of Beyond the Barn. Our next guest is an Illinois native, board certified, poultry veterinarian, who works as an avian diagnostician at the Indiana Animal Disease Diagnostic Lab and clinical assistant professor at Purdue University College of Veterinary Medicine. He enjoys sharing everyday adventures with his cats, Cookie and Bob. I'd like to welcome Dr. Geoffrey Lossie to the Beyond the Barn podcast. Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Lossie.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:00:58):

Thank you so much, Katy, for that awesome introduction. I'm happy to be here.


Katy Starr (00:01:02):

Yeah, we're so glad to have you here to talk to us about poultry and all of the great things that we're going to discuss today. I think it's going to be great, particularly for those that are going to be excited about upcoming, you know, I guess these days they reference it a lot as chick days, but it's just that time of year where people get really excited about getting chicks and getting prepared for that. So, today's going to be a really great topic to talk about.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:01:29):

Absolutely. Looking forward to it.


Katy Starr (00:01:31):

And so, just to our listeners, as a reminder, any of the topics that we cover on the Beyond the Barn podcast, they are more generalized and not specific to any individual animal or any specific situation. So, be sure to always work with your specific veterinarian and nutritionist, as applicable, before you make any drastic changes to your setup, feed programs, or anything like that. And then at the end, we will also give you some options to connect with Dr. Lossie, if you have any specific questions for him following today's conversation. So, Dr. Lossie, I would love if you could kind of just give us a little bit of your background with poultry. Did you grow up in agriculture in the poultry industry?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:02:17):

So, that is always a funny question because I get a lot of people ask, how do you get into poultry medicine as a veterinarian? It's a very niche, small field in terms of my college, the American College of Poultry Veterinarians, there's probably only a couple hundred of us across the entire United States. And so, it's a very specialized area of vet med. And no, I did not grow up on a farm. I think as a kid, the only time I ever saw chickens was probably at a petting zoo. So, I'm actually from the Northwest suburbs of Chicago. And so, I had a very suburban upbringing, and I actually had no interest in chickens outside of consuming them until I really went to vet school. And it was kind of in vet school that I met my past mentor Dr. Pat Wakenell who's since retired, but I took a rotation.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:03:17):

So, during our fourth year you take various rotations in the different clinical skills, and I took a rotation with poultry medicine, and I found that I just really, really enjoyed working with not only the birds, but also really the clients as well. And at the time I was kind of back and forth in terms of what I wanted to do when I finished vet school. And it turned out Dr. Wakenell had a residency position available. And so, for those of you that aren't familiar, its a residency, you're probably familiar with it more in terms of medical doctors. So, human doctors go through, almost all of them go through some type of residency and vet med residencies are for very specialized training. So, I went through, did my four years of vet school after undergrad and then did an additional three years of schooling, a hundred percent specific to poultry. So, even though I did not have the poultry background, during that three years of my residencies is where I was able to pick up all the information that I needed.


Katy Starr (00:04:23):

That is so interesting. So, what kind of piqued your interest in becoming a veterinarian in general? Did you just have a love for animals and that was just one of those things where you're like, I'd love to be a doctor for animals?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:04:35):

Yeah, it's a little bit corny in terms of, you know, why, and I'm not the only one. But growing up, Animal Planet on cable used to actually have educational programming about animals. And I was always into, you know, Steve Irwin was my hero growing up. I watched all those types of programs, but there was one in particular called Animal ER. And it followed the day in day out practice of a high-volume veterinary emergency clinic in, I believe it was Colorado. And I was just so fascinated by all of the medicine and the things that vets were able to do for pets that they're seeing as well as for the clients. That it really just, once that, kind of, popped into my mind, at that point, for me, there was no turning back. It's what I wanted to do.


Katy Starr (00:05:36):

That's awesome. And to think that something like that, you know, influenced you so much, especially because you didn't grow up in that industry, I think that's really an awesome thing that it did for you and changed your life really.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:05:51):

Yeah, it did. It got me, you know, any person that wants to become a veterinarian, one of the big things that you have to get during your schooling and career is shadowing opportunities. And so, we talked to our family vet, and I started shadowing I think when, at least for a few days, not long term. But I remember, I think I got my first shadowing experience when I was probably about 12 or 13.


Katy Starr (00:06:16):

That's really cool. I love to hear about your background. That's very, very interesting. So, today our topic that we're really going to get into is sourcing, caring for, and I think some common diseases that we can see at some different life stages, just kind of what to expect. And like you said, you know, it is such a niche field, poultry medicine, and I think any of our listeners that own chickens probably know that, because it's hard to find a veterinarian that really understands, you know, what they're trying to do with their chickens. I mean, they do the best that they can with the education that they have, but when you don't get too specialized sometimes it can be a little bit tricky on some of those species. And so, I think it'll be really great for us to have a chat today. So, from your experiences, what do you feel like is probably the biggest mistake that chicken owners make?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:07:13):

So, in my opinion, the biggest one that I have seen time, and time, and time again is purchasing birds from either unknown sources, rescuing birds, and I'll get back to, so, it's great to rescue things, but I'll get back to why that can be dangerous. And it's buying that chicken from somebody or taking in a chicken from somebody, that is really the most dangerous time for your flock. Because with poultry, there are a number of significant diseases, two really big ones, that we can talk a little bit more in specifics later. But once they get into a flock, you're never going to get rid of it. And that's one thing that I would love to get, one concept, I would love for poultry owners to understand. Is that these are animals, complex animals, just like a dog, just like your cat, just like us. And if you think about all the things that have made you sick in your life, look at a chicken and think the same way.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:08:28):

So, there's just as many challenges, if not more, towards our poultry and some of the things that can make our birds sick last forever. And there's no way to get rid of them. And the most common way that people bring these diseases onto their premises, or onto their property, is through buying adult or semi-adult birds. And so, that is by far the biggest thing. If I could discourage owners from purchasing birds, sight unseen. So, things like sale barns can be very risky. I'm not saying high-quality birds aren't sold or offered at places like sale barns, but I also know that if there's somebody that has birds and they know they're sick and they just want to get rid of them, there's nothing stopping them from taking them to a sale barn. And if they're not showing signs of disease at the time that you buy them, that does not mean that they're not diseased.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:09:32):

So, typically you think of, you know, you go to the shelter, and you look at a dog or a cat, and as long as they're not showing signs of disease, we kind of just naturally make this assumption that that means that that animal is healthy or that that animal can't be carrying anything. And unfortunately, that's not true. Some of these diseases in poultry, and I'll just mention the names. One is called Marek's disease; it's named after Joseph Marek, who discovered it. And the other one, or it's two actually called mycoplasma. So, there's a Mycoplasma Gallisepticum (MG), which I'm just going to abbreviate as M, as in Mary, and then G, and Mycoplasma Pneumonia, which I will abbreviate as MS. And those are two big diseases, of consequence, that it can be very easy to unknowingly introduce into your flock.


Katy Starr (00:10:25):

Excellent. Yeah, no, that'll be so great to talk about a little bit more in depth as we go along in our conversation today. As we get started, and this is good, this is good to set us up because I feel like sometimes you go into chicken ownership, I mean people also get interested in it this time of year because of Easter too, right? You have all these cute little chicks, and you know, oh, let's get these little chicks. And just not realizing that, you know, it's not just something easily that you can just toss aside. Like it's an animal that you need to care for, you need to understand how to properly care for them. And then, yeah, like what you said, the biggest mistake, I feel like it's not something that people even think is an issue. And so, for us to talk about it today I think is good because its kind of just puts it at the forefront of our minds to be aware of and have a little bit better understanding of that.


Katy Starr (00:11:18):

And so, that's really great. And so, as we get started today, for those that maybe are interested in getting new chicks this spring, you know, you go through the farm and ranch retail stores and sometimes it's like they're just cheeping out your name, like "Come buy me" . Or you have your friends that, you know, have chicken math and in their minds and they're like, oh, we have one chick, what's 50 more? And so, I would like to know if you have some tips for sourcing birds. So, what kind of questions, because there's different types of places that we can get chicks from. So, what kind of questions should chicken owners be asking before buying?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:12:00):

Yeah, so the best questions to really ask, in my opinion, there's a big one, and it should be an upfront question no matter where you're trying to get your chickens from. And the question is, is my chicken vaccinated for Marek's disease? And that's the one that I mentioned before. And so, Marek's disease is very, very common in backyard birds. However, luckily it can be vaccinated for. Now, there's a lot of science that goes into vaccination, but I am of the opinion that every single one of your birds should be vaccinated for Marek's. There are some misconceptions about Marek's vaccines out there, that the vaccine is the actual disease, and its mass spreading, and all these things that are not true. And so, if I could get folks to do one thing when they're purchasing birds, it's ask, have these chicks been vaccinated for Marek's? Because the vaccine actually happens in one of two places, both within the hatchery.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:13:07):

And so, you can actually inject a developing embryo while it's still in the egg, at 18 days of incubation and you can actually inject the vaccine into that egg and then that bird will start developing immunity and can be protected against Marek's. The other place that the vaccine can be given is on day of hatch. So, these chicks, they hatch out in this commercial hatchery or small kind of scale hatchery. They're processed, they're counted, usually they'll try to sex the birds. And then, there's a small machine that the back of the neck of the bird is pushed up against and a little tiny, tiny needle. It's an automatic, it's on a pneumatic kind of drive, it shoots out. And just like if you've ever given dogs or cats or even horses fluids underneath the skin, it's the same concept. It's just putting that vaccine right underneath the skin.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:14:07):

And the reason that this is so important is that the best time to give this vaccine is at day of hatch. So, if you've got birds and they're four weeks old and all of a sudden you find out about Marek's disease and you want to vaccinate those birds, the problem is, is that because this vaccine was developed for the commercial industry and is done on mass scales inside of hatcheries, there has not been the funding or desire to find out if the vaccine is effective after being given on the day of hatch. So, it's a very safe vaccine. It can still be given at older ages, but the critical part is that we just don't know if it's effective when given at an older age, which is why it's so critical for those birds to be coming onto your property already vaccinated for Marek's.


Katy Starr (00:15:08):

That is interesting. Do you happen to know how common it is for those that are like vaccinated at that time versus those that I guess exist out there that aren't? Are there numbers out there that anybody has any knowledge of?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:15:25):

Oh, gotcha. I would say in my experience at least, and maybe I misconstrued the question, but in my experience, I would say probably somewhere, if we were just talking about small flock, backyard flock, whichever term you prefer, and you took up all of the chickens and asked what percentage are vaccinated? I would say somewhere, unfortunately it's probably less than 50%, if I had to guess.


Katy Starr (00:15:55):

Really? Oh wow.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:15:56):

And part of the reason for that, is where people source their chicks. And one of the big, probably the biggest, you know, I ask a lot of my clients, and unless they're very specialized in the show bird, kind of arena, the most common answer you will ever hear is, yes, I got it at a brick-and-mortar agricultural store. So, I won't say brands, but some type of a big box agricultural store that sells baby chicks.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:16:27):

And in my experience, most of those big box stores do not provide chicks that are vaccinated for Marek's disease. Now, I will throw out a caveat, it depends. Some are different, some might, which is why the first question, or the first statement, that I mentioned was always ask if those birds are vaccinated for Marek's disease. And if they seem at all unsure with their answer, like they're like, oh yeah, yeah, I think yeah, they're vaccinated. I would go somewhere because they should be able to show you either a piece of paper potentially or something, you know, stating that yes, their birds that they're receiving have been vaccinated, or the person in charge or that's managing the birds at that section should know within an instant, off the top of their head. And that's usually a good sign that, hopefully, they are actually vaccinated.


Katy Starr (00:17:24):

Is there anything that people can do? Like you kind of mentioned, like let's say you, kind of, have your chicks for four weeks or whatever and you're just learning about this, right? Is there anything that they can do at this point now to, obviously they can't really be terribly proactive because the best way to be proactive is to get vaccinated chicks. But at this point, like what can they do to kind of, I guess, keep their chicks as healthy as they can?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:17:55):

So, there's two things that I'll mention. One is that in my experience, you can give the Marek's vaccine outside of a day of age, with that big caveat being that we don't have scientific data to tell us if it's efficacious or not. It's a very safe vaccine, it's not going to harm the bird. So, you can still give it, we just scientifically don't know if it actually helps the bird mount the proper immune response. So, that's one thing that you could try. The other concept that I would like to introduce to everybody is what's called all-in all-out growing practices. And what all-in all-out means is that let's say I am planning to get a flock of chickens, I know that ultimately, I would like to have 20 laying hens as part of my flock. So, I'm going to plan everything ahead of time to get those 20 hens.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:18:57):

Now, when you order chicks, of course, sometimes unfortunate things happen and not every chick is going to make it. So, if you want 20 permanent laying hens, you might need to order 25 say. So, I've got my 25 laying hens now, or chicks, whichever stage they're at, I build them a coop and they lay eggs for me, and they live their entire life without a single new bird ever coming into that flock. Once my hens are aged or they're no longer laying, or usually it's just they've reached their natural lifespan, that is when you would see about starting a new flock. Again, all the birds come in at the same time, preferably from the same place, preferably as day-old chicks, that have been vaccinated. And as long as you have that original group of birds, you simply never add any more until you're fully ready to start that cycle over again. And that's all-in all-out. And there's really no better way to raise these birds and to not have a risk of disease introduction than that. That's one of the best things that you can do.


Katy Starr (00:20:14):

Okay, that's excellent. Are there any other common questions that, hey, you're going to buy some chicks that chicken owners or potential chicken owners should be thinking of aside from the Marek's vaccination question?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:20:30):

Yeah, it's one of those where they need to be, if they're a brand-new poultry owner, they need to be asking a lot of questions. And I would say it's almost just as important to think of somebody asking them the questions, right? So, if I am a brand-new poultry owner, I wish that I could talk to every brand-new poultry owner and ask them, you know, I would have a list of the top 10 things, you know, is your chick vaccinated? Do you already have the feed that you need? Have you set up your brooding area for your chicks? Do you have an infrared temperature gauge or gun? Those are super helpful because one of the things, is that your brooders should be established and set up and to temperature, before the chicks ever go in there. If you just get your chicks and you put them in the brooder and the first time that you're turning on the supplemental heat is right when those chicks go into that brooder, they're going to get really cold.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:21:36):

And when those chicks get cold, they're not moving around, they're not going to be as interested in eating and drinking. And just so you all know, if you ever do get mail order chicks, and that's one of the easiest ways to ensure that you're getting Marek's vaccinated birds is from an online hatchery. Because usually when you place, okay, I want five of these, there's usually a little button or a popup that says, you know, do you want your birds vaccinated for Marek's? And it adds, you know, cents on the dollar. It's not particularly expensive to have your chicks vaccinated. And so, chicks, the reason that I mentioned that though, they can come through the mail, so chicks can be fine for up to 48, pushing it a little bit at 72, but they can be fine for multiple days without food or water because they are absorbing their yolk sack.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:22:30):

So, as an embryo, when they're in the egg, the yolk sack is actually outside of the developing embryo. And as that embryo gets closer and closer to hatching, the yolk sac is actually internalized, basically through the belly button of that bird, and it goes inside of its body cavity and the yolk is actually connected via a thin duct to the intestines. And so, as the yoke is internalized and the yoke is utilized, you can imagine all that nutritious yoke going through this little duct into the intestines. And so, one thing that can actually happen, unfortunately, I've heard this story many, many times, is birds are being shipped through the mail, they get to a postage center, they hear birds, you know, chirping in the box, so they put a dish of water and then the birds end up drowning in transit.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:23:26):

So, small dishes of water and things like that, especially if any of you listeners have ever raised buttonquail or bobwhite quail, you actually have to put something in the water dish to make sure that they can get out. Because birds can actually drown if you have the wrong size water dishes or water receptacles. So, asking, do you have those, do you have enough feeders? You know, there's so many questions that I would like to ask in terms of asking, you know, either the store representative or something like that. There's really not a lot of other big ones that I can think of except for I just encourage people, that if they have questions about anything, to always do their background research and try to get answers before they're at the point where they're at the store and the baby chicks are cheeping at them and looking really cute. So, make sure you do your research before you go to the stores and look at those chicks.


Katy Starr (00:24:19):

Yes, yes. That's great. Well, and honestly, I guess I didn't realize, that you said it usually about 48 to 72 hours for chicks, that if they don't take in any food or water, it's not a big deal. And that I guess explains why they do that process, right? For getting chicks to locations. I didn't know that. So, that's something very interesting.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:24:42):

Yeah, they do make these products, they're called hydration pucks. Now those, they might put in the box with the chicks. It's basically a gel-like puck that they can pick at, and it prevents them from drowning within a container of some type.


Katy Starr (00:24:57):

Yeah, yeah.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:24:58):

So, you know, there are things like that that you could offer them during transit. But yes, if you're ever transporting day-old chicks or anything like that, don't have a water cup or a water source in there with them, because there's the potential for drowning.


Katy Starr (00:25:12):

Definitely. Okay. And so, when we're setting up our coop situation, everything you were talking about the brooder and everything. Because it's a little bit different for new chicks versus when they start to grow and become chickens. So, what would you say, I guess, are the main differences between the two setups to make sure that you're serving those animals at that life stage in the best way possible?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:25:36):

The biggest thing, straight out the gate, is temperature. Now, when you're starting a baby chick, you know, let's say you're talking about a typical brooder set up, you've got a bunch of nice pine shavings in the bottom, you have a heat bulb, and then you've got a couple drinkers and feeders. And we'll talk about how important those are here in a second. And that's why I was mentioning it needs to be heated up prior to the birds getting there. And most people probably aren't getting their setups, initially, warm enough. You want that ambient, the temperature of that litter to be almost 98 degrees in temperature. Because the internal body temperature, and this is kind of another thing that astonishes a lot of people, at least in baby chicks, their internal body temperature should be about 102 to 103 degrees. And again, as their baby chicks, they don't have the abilities yet to thermal regulate nearly as efficiently as an adult would.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:26:40):

And so, making sure that the temperature is set and has already, and that's why I was mentioning the infrared temperature gun comes in very handy, because you can just point it at the litter and see, okay, because that's, it's kind of the litter that you want to get up to that ambient temperature. So, if you've got the litter temperature right, chances are the temperatures in your brooder are probably just about right. Now, the other thing that I'll mention is that as these birds grow in that brooder, you're going to need to raise that brooder or to lower the temperature. Now there's all different ways. Some people say, you know, you can raise it by, you know, after the first week you can start dropping it by a degree every so often, rather than get into all the temperature specifics and things like that. What I encourage owners to do is to look at the bird's behavior.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:27:36):

Birds, even baby chicks can tell you if they're too hot or too cold. So, if every single chick is piled together under that brood lamp, they're cold, they're seeking heat, they're piled together, they're trying to use body warmth of all their friends there to keep them warm and they're cold. Now, if you have your heater here and the birds are all up against the edges of that brooder, as far away from the heat source as possible, you're overheating those guys. So, for me, it really is looking at the bird behavior. Your brooder should be big enough so that you can kind of watch the birds move throughout the brooder. And there should be what we call an even distribution of chicks throughout the brooder. You know, they shouldn't all be over here, they shouldn't all be over there. And that also relates somewhat to the feeders and waters.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:28:33):

So, you might have 10 baby chicks within a brooder, and you might think, okay, well one little feeder holds more than enough food that those chicks aren't going to be able to get through all that food. So, you think, okay, I put in a feeder, it's good. One of the most important things that people, a lot of times will also make errors on, is feeder and water space. So, you want these little guys to have as easy of access to food and water as possible. You kind of want them to turn around and run into food or turn around and run into water. So, having multiple, they don't have to be big waters, they don't have to be big feeders. It could be food put on a paper plate and placed in the brooder. That's actually a really good way to get birds, to encourage them to start eating because as they walk over the food that's on that plate, it crinkles, and it makes a noise, and they look down immediately to see what that is. And then they start pecking and realizing its food. So, having enough feeder space and water space is just as important as the presence of food and water is in general.


Katy Starr (00:29:53):

And then in terms of food, what are we looking for when we start to feed chicks? Because if I recall correctly, there's like chick-starter, like some general chick starter, but then there's also some medicated chick-starter. What can you tell us about that and what would be good for us to consider for our chicks?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:30:14):

Absolutely. And this is something where, you know, again, all of these are my recommendations. If you found something that works for you and it raises healthy chicks, you know, stick with that. That being said, especially because I could have clients that have been raising birds for 30 years, or I could have a client that just bought it. So, I always tell my clients, regardless of who they are, to feed that medicated chick-starter feed. And you might be thinking, oh, well wouldn't you want to stay away from the medications if you can? And I would say, yes, but what the medication is in that medicated chick-starter feed, and this goes for all medicated chick-starter feed. The active ingredient is called Amprolium. And Amprolium, it's not technically an antibiotic, but it's only meant to treat one thing. And it's one type of internal parasite called Coccidiosis or Coccidia.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:31:14):

It's a one-cell protozoal parasite that infects the intestines. And it's one of the more common things that you can run into if you're not feeding a medicated chick-starter feed. So, what this chick-starter feed, the medicated feed does is that if these birds end up getting exposed to coccidia, let's say they're, this is something you can also vaccinate for at the hatchery, or they get exposed via cross-contamination, or I know some people swear by starting their chicks off in used litter. So, litter that has already been used and is coming from another coop. So, then the parasites already there and what this medicated chick-starter feed, does is that it doesn't completely eliminate all of the parasites. It keeps it down to a level where there's just enough parasites replicating but not causing damage. But enough are there that the immune system can now find those guys and start building up that immunity. So, again, it's the medicated chick-starter feed. It's not to treat bacteria, it's not treating viruses, it's not doing any of that. It's literally controlling one enteric parasite, coccidia. And so, since I don't know how often people are going to be changing the bedding, you know, I don't know how often somebody might be doing X, Y, or Z. That's why I recommend, usually for the first five weeks, to feed a medicated chick-starter feed. And that's the best recommendation that I can give. Again, for the most part for your brand new, kind of, chicken keeper.


Katy Starr (00:32:56):

Excellent. Okay. And are there any particular breeds that might be easier to start with than others? I know people sometimes get caught up in the colors of eggs that are laid, right? Which I think once you get really more experienced, you really get into that whole rainbow of colors if that's something that's important to you. But are there any certain breeds that might be easier to start with than others?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:33:21):

Yeah, I think any of, usually some of your more rock-solid breeds are going to be your dual-purpose breeds. So, dual-purpose, meaning that depending on how you feed them, if it's a male or female, they can be good for egg production and they can also be good for meat. So, that's, and most of your heritage type breeds, especially the ones from like Europe, Northern Europe, those areas, they tend to already be dual-purpose breeds. So, some easy ones, you know, like Orpingtons tend to be very calm, very chill birds. I've worked with them a lot, I enjoy them. A lot of times, also, just sometimes your commercial brown layers, just a hybrid, you know, brown layer. They're usually much more robust than something like a White Leghorn, which is the commercial breed of hen or chicken that lays your white table eggs. You're buying those from the store, those are coming from White Leghorns, which is a Mediterranean breed.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:34:28):

So, another thing to consider when you're buying your birds is where you live. Because if you are in, you know, the far north of Minnesota and your summer is maybe two months and its fairly cold outside of that time, you're probably not going to want a tropical origin, like an Asiatic origin breed of chicken, because it's just not going to thrive as well there in the wintertime as something like a big fluffy of Orpington. So, ultimately, I think it comes down to personal preference. There's really, I've never, you know, and this is not disparaging the breed. I've heard a lot of people get sold into like Rhode Island Reds, but I've heard that they can be rather difficult to deal with sometimes. But I've heard good things about any of, like some of your different Wyandottes are usually good, creamsicle Wyandottes. And that's the thing is trying to keep up with poultry breeds. Especially when you have, okay, we're going to, this and this mix together creates this breed, that we're going to market in our chick catalog and we're going to call it, you know, the mighty egg layer. And so, it's just, there's so many different breeds. It really comes down to, why do you want?


Katy Starr (00:35:48):



Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:35:49):

Yeah, if I was going to talk to a new client, I would ask, why do you want your birds? And that's also going to help you determine what breeds you want. Because if you say, oh, well I would like to have the option of processing them, eating them, well that's going to steer you away from the white Leghorn. Or if you say these are purely going to be pets, I don't care about the eggs or meat, then it really is about, you know, trying to get a personality of bird or a color of bird or plumage that you really like.


Katy Starr (00:36:21):

Excellent. Yeah, that's some great advice there. So, let's talk about normal versus abnormal, because you've done this in different talks, and I know I mentioned this to you, but a lot of our listeners are very familiar with our equine nutritionist, Dr. Cubitt, saying, being able to know what is normal versus abnormal for your animal is so important because that's when you know that something's off, that's when you know, maybe I should get a vet out, something like that, or that something is wrong. And so, I think it'd be great for us to talk about that for chickens in maybe a few of the different life stages. So, how do we determine what is normal?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:37:03):

Yeah, so I think, you know, with chicks it's relatively easy. There are a couple key things that I look for. The first is bright, open, clear eyes. You know, if you see a chick that has its eyes matted shut or crusted around it, that's abnormal, they should be dry. They shouldn't have exudate or feces on them. They should be nice, fluffy, dry, clear eyes. And when you're observing them in the brooder, like I mentioned before, you want to make sure that they are kind of utilizing the whole area. You want to see that they have enough energy, you would ideally like to observe them eating and drinking. A couple other big things that are important to look for, especially in chicks that are going to end up being, thinking they're going to be pets. And that's the conformity of the feet. There are, I won't say a lot, but in every batch of chicks, you're going to have some that were malpositioned in the egg or the incubation parameters can affect their developing joints and tendons.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:38:15):

And so, making sure that both feet are right out in front that there's no major bends or deviations. You know, there's not a leg sticking straight back and it's hopping on one leg. So, really looking for those leg abnormalities at an early age is important because some of them can be corrected through a process called splinting. So, you actually make them these little splints and hobbles and you can actually correct some of those, not all, some of their, kind of, leg abnormalities. The reason it's so important to do that early on though, is that as these birds continue to grow those soft tissues, their tendons, their ligaments begin to solidify. And so, if you don't address a lameness issue, I mean really as soon as possible, if we're talking about a baby chick, now all of a sudden, you've got a month-old chick that's had a deviated leg out to the side for a month, the chances of that limb returning back to normal, or even being fixable, decreases the further you get away from that point of hatch.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:39:32):

Another thing that's really important to look at for a good quality chick, and this pertains more so to ones that are about a day to about three days old, but you want to feel their belly button. And that is pretty much anatomically where ours is just kind of on their stomach kind of right in the center. And you should barely feel, just a little tiny bump. If there's like a really big black looking scab, we call that a navel button, that basically means that there was an infection, or something happened during the process of it internalizing its yolk. And that's basically going to be kind of an open wound. You also want to make sure that there's not what's called a navel wick. A navel wick is a small piece of, kind of, yolk remnant that sticks out. So, if this is the belly button, the navel wick kind of sticks out of it, and it's like a little thin piece of string, that sticks out of that navel.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:40:34):

And what that does is, and the reason they call it a wick, is that if that's dragging around in the environment, it's getting feces on it, it's getting water on it, it's going to allow bacteria to translocate into now the abdomen of our developing chick. And so, navel health is a big important thing that I look at in day-old chicks. Now, one thing I will mention, because I was thinking about it, is you were asking me what's normal, if you've never seen a baby chick sleep, a lot of times they will sleep just on their chest and they will just be laying almost face down just looking like that. And so, if you're a first-time chick owner and you go and you see all of them are lying like that in the box, you're like, oh my gosh, they're all dead. And you agitate them a little bit, they'll jump right up. So, there's some goofy kind of behavioral things that you can see with getting to know baby chicks and things like that that that're totally normal, but it's just different behaviors.


Katy Starr (00:41:37):

That's funny. I'm going to compare that to, I have three young kids and when they were toddlers they would, or when they were little, younger than toddlers I guess, they would sleep, they're all scrunched up, basically on their knees and stuff and their butt in the air. Like it's the weirdest thing, but apparently, it's very comfortable for them to sleep that way. So, when you were describing the chicks, I was like, oh, okay, well that's normal .


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:42:01):

Yeah. Yeah.


Katy Starr (00:42:02):

That's funny. So, you talked about, let's stick with the chick stage and then we can go into the other ones as well. So, you talked about what's kind of normal for them and then you talked earlier about Marek's disease is something that can be kind of abnormal or a common disease that chicks can get. What else can you share with us about, okay, we've kind of figured out what maybe is normal, what are some, any other common abnormalities, or diseases that we should look for with our chicks?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:42:31):

With chicks, and one thing I'll tell you is that Marek's, we vaccinate them at hatch or in the egg for Marek's disease. The key timeframe that you actually see disease being caused by Marek's disease is between roughly two to nine months of age. So, it's something, again they can be exposed to it earlier and the virus can start replicating, but you won't really see the disease manifest until about two months between two to nine months of age. So, Mareks, even though we vaccinate for it, not going to be looking for it as a disease in your baby chicks if that makes sense.


Katy Starr (00:43:10):

Yeah, no. Okay. So, it's something that comes later. Yeah.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:43:13):

Yeah, mm-hmm. So, some things to definitely look for, and unfortunately a lot of times I was mentioning those yolk or belly button, those navel abnormalities, sometimes those can be very hard to detect. And so, one thing I'll say to everybody out there is don't be discouraged if you ordered birds and you have a couple “DOAs,” “dead on arrivals” or you have some birds that fail to thrive because it could be something internalized that happened at the hatchery that you had absolutely no control over. So, those things do happen. One of the big ones is diarrhea early on. And diarrhea is pretty easy to note in baby chicks because it gets stuck in the feathers right around their vent, which is the common opening for birds where the urinary, reproductive, and gastrointestinal tract all empties out into originally this opening called the cloaca. And the vent is the opening to that interior part.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:44:17):

That's the cloaca. And so, if you're looking at the vent and there's feces, like dried chunks of oftentimes what we call urates. So, when you look at an avian dropping, there should be your nice, normal, kind of semi-solid, brown to slightly greenish component. And then if you've ever seen bird droppings, which most people have been outside and you see that white part to it, those are called urates. And that's actually how birds excrete waste from their kidneys. It comes out as a solid or semi-solid, compared to like what most mammals and humans, we get rid of our nitrogen waste via urine, so via urea. Whereas birds excrete it as uric acid, which is a semi-solid. And so, if you get lots of feces just adhered to the back end of a bird, it's diarrhea. And a lot of times that can be related to the birds being too hot.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:45:18):

So, overheating your birds early on can lead to diarrhea issues. But again, Coccidiosis with younger chicks, so probably, you know, with Coccidiosis it usually peaks at about 21 to 28 days depending, probably a little bit closer to 28 days. So, you probably won't be seeing Coccidiosis, or you won't be seeing Coccidiosis in your week-old chicks. But once they start getting older than about three weeks, that's when you can start. Or you might be challenged with Coccidiosis, you're going to see a lot of wet droppings. If you don't see diarrhea, oftentimes one of the keys to finding diarrhea is you're just like, you look at the pine shavings or the litter in the brooder and it's just like, man, that got wet really fast, but I know the water didn't spill, or you know that something like that didn't happen. If the litter just gets really, really wet and sticky, a lot of times that can be another good indication that these guys are having diarrhea, orange-tinged diarrhea or sometimes if it could be dark black and tarry. Those are other good indications that you're dealing with Coccidiosis, which is probably one of the most common things in that chick stage that folks probably deal with.


Katy Starr (00:46:39):

Oh, okay. I see. We probably should have mentioned this, and we can determine this for the other life stages as well, but what age range would you define a chick as?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:46:50):

That's a hard one. You know, there's no resource. You know, we don't, unfortunately when you graduate in my college, they don't hand you a book that says chick is up till this age. But usually, I would probably say after probably about a month, you're starting to probably say, yeah, it's not really a chick. You could start calling it a pullet. You could start calling it a cockerel, which are just the two terms for a female and a male immature chicken. Personally, I would say in my mind, roughly after about a month or so.


Katy Starr (00:47:27):

And so, then a pullet then would be a female that is a year or under, kind of out of that chick range, is that right?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:47:34):

Yep, mm-hmm. A pullet is a year or younger that doesn't fall into that chick stage, but she has not begun to lay eggs yet. And then cockerel stage, usually it's a sexually immature male, so it won't have spurs yet, it won't probably be crowing yet. You might see some feather development on it that might help differentiate. Sometimes there's color sexing, so sometimes males are always, if you cross it this way and this way, your males will always come out one color as a chick. So, there's some interesting genetic things that can happen there too, but.


Katy Starr (00:48:10):



Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:48:11):

But yes, that's a pullet and a cockerel.


Katy Starr (00:48:13):

Okay. And so, when we're getting out of that chick stage and looking at that age range, are there any things that we can look at for them that is normal versus abnormal then?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:48:28):

Yeah, so once you kind of start getting out of the chick phase into the pullet phase, this is really where you can start thinking of them as just smaller chickens, you know, when they're in that pullet phase. And what I mean by that is, you know, you can start handling them more and looking at them, but you start to see, you can definitely tell they're on their way to being an adult. Certain things that I would look at the eyes are always important. Eyes in poultry, I'll give you a generality, but if you see conjunctivitis, so you see redness to the eye, or you see they're making tons of tear production, or their eye is swollen and it's almost swollen shut. When you see eye abnormalities like that, it is almost always a respiratory infection. It is not something primarily wrong with the eyes.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:49:27):

And respiratory infections can affect birds at any age. But the one that I mentioned that Mycoplasma Gallisepticum (MG), it generally is not hitting very young chicks. So, I would be thinking of, some of these respiratory viruses though, can be quite deadly for kind of the pullet or cockerel stage, as well as for adults. But especially in this pullet/cockerel phase, because again, we don't have a mature immune system yet. So, things like mycoplasma, there's infectious bronchitis virus, there's infectious laryngotracheitis virus, there's all these different viruses. But the main way that you'll see a change a lot of times for a new poultry owner is the eyes. So, I tell my vet students the eyes are the window to the respiratory system. So, also other things that can indicate respiratory disease, which as a category, I would say respiratory, gastrointestinal, and neurologic disease are your three biggest categories that most diseases that are going to affect backyard birds are going to fit into one of those three.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:50:40):

Things like open mouth breathing. So, that's another good way with baby chicks to see they might be hot if they're open mouth breathing. Panting is one of the few ways that birds have to cool themselves down. But if you look out at a flock and you see one or two birds panting, it's, you know, they might have just been running around, they could be hot. If you look at everybody and every single bird is panting, that's not a good sign. Or if they're stretching their neck out to breathe like they're struggling to breathe, that's another pretty telltale sign of respiratory diseases. Sneezing, excessive sneezing. Now, birds just sneeze, just like every other animal. So, you will hear them sneeze if you sit there and listen long enough. But if you can sit there and let's say there's 20 chickens all around you and you hear sneeze, sneeze, sneeze, sneeze, that's abnormal. And that too can be a sign of respiratory tract infection.


Katy Starr (00:51:42):

Interesting. Okay. And respiratory, is that the most common that you would see with chickens?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:51:49):

I would say it is, specifically with chickens, it is probably number two.


Katy Starr (00:51:55):

Oh, okay.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:51:56):

And neurology is number one and that's Marek's disease.


Katy Starr (00:52:01):

Okay. So, that makes sense.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:52:02):

Yep. In Marek's disease, I'll tell you a little more info, it's a virus, it's a herpes virus, which again, one thing to know about herpes viruses is once they're in a bird, it's there for life. So, it's a herpes virus, but what the virus actually does is, and this won't happen in every bird, which is very difficult for owners to understand, but it can actually basically transform into, think of it as another phase. And the virus then induces tumors to form throughout the body, particularly lymphomas. And one of the tissues that these tumors, or also inflammation, really likes to go to are the nerves. And so, with Marek's disease, again, if you're going to see it in that two-to-seven-month timeframe, lameness is actually one of the most obvious clinical signs. And it's usually one leg only. So, what we call unilateral lameness or paralysis. So, it might be laying down, it might be able to use one leg, but then one leg is just completely stuck out to the back or to the side. That leg is probably paralyzed and it's from that tumor and additional inflammation getting into the nerves. And Marek's disease is by far the disease that I diagnose most commonly in backyard birds, at least here in the Midwest, particularly Indiana. You know, that's going to change depending potentially on where you're at in the states or in the world. But here it's Marek's disease.


Katy Starr (00:53:47):

Okay. And is this different, as the chickens get older and they kind of get out of that, kind of, young stage into adult, they're now laying, what do we see then at that point with the normal versus abnormal or what's different for them versus those younger ones?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:54:07):

Yeah, some of the things that are different now that you have adult birds, another very easy way to have a pretty good assessment of overall health can be the reproductive health. And so, if they're laying eggs, so keeping track of how many eggs you're getting every day. So, if all of a sudden for the last three weeks you have 12 birds and you've been getting 10 eggs a day every single day, you know, two aren't laying, they might just be older, maybe they're not in lay anymore. But then all of a sudden, the next day or the next two days, you get two eggs, now you've got three eggs, you know, but nothing else has changed. So, your lighting didn't change, there wasn't a big, you know, predator didn't scare them all or something like that. That can be a very easy way to pick up on if there could be something wrong.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:55:02):

Another one that is a very common condition, thankfully, it's not usually life threatening, but it affects adult birds much more than your younger birds, because they weigh more, is bumblefoot or pododermatitis, and that is a disease of management. Something has injured or irritated the bottom of that foot pad and it's allowed an infection to start. So, that could be something as you don't have the right perches, the perch has a nail sticking out of it, or screws, or sharp metal edges. Birds do not do well on substrates, so like if your run was completely like big pointy, like crushed limestone rocks, that's going to hurt the bottom of their feet. So, I would say their ability to lay, their body weight is another great indicator of health. And I would encourage clients to get used to handling their birds, feeling the muscle on either side of what's called the keel, that's their straight breastbone, and palpate the muscle on either side of it and get used to your birds.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:56:13):

Just like when you take your dog to the vet, it gets weighed every year, weigh your chickens, get an idea of how much these birds weigh, and then before it becomes something of like a major issue, you'd be like, oh man, the weight is trending down in this bird. There's probably something wrong, I probably need to see about getting some veterinary help. So, I think for adults it's leg health. So, get used to picking up your chickens and looking at the bottom of their feet. Get used to handling your chickens, feeling their breast muscles, and weighing them. You know, drops in weight can oftentimes be very difficult for clients to notice. Because it's a big fluffy bird, right? It's a chicken. You're not going to notice that weight loss unless you're handling them or weighing them. And oftentimes by the time a bird gets to me and it's as thin as it can be, there may not be anything that we can do for that bird, depending on what's going on.


Katy Starr (00:57:08):

And because of how difficult it can sometimes be to find a veterinarian that knows chickens, we often talk about whenever anybody's looking to get horses or livestock or anything like that, one of the first things that that potential owner should be doing is seeking out who is going to be my veterinarian for these animals if something happens. Kind of having that planned ahead of time instead of, oh, we hit a point, now I have a problem and now I need to go find a veterinarian. You often get flustered, upset, impatient. It makes it challenging for that relationship with your veterinarian. So, do you have any tips or suggestions for those that are looking for a veterinarian that might be able to serve their chickens, what they can look for, maybe questions they can ask or anything like that?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:58:03):

Yeah, I do. And as an instructor at the vet school, what I try to do with my students is teach them the basics. I teach them, hey, these are the top major diseases. This is what you need to look for. So, that they can go out into practice. They don't have to be experts, but they can help backyard clients with these common things. But you know, that's something that the fruits of my labor are going to be seen years down the road. So, unfortunately, yes, you're right. It's very hard to find a vet that's willing to see poultry. There are a couple easier ways, or a couple ways that you can try to maximize that. One is our exotic animal clinics, exotic animal practices, or practices that see exotic pets. Chances are they see birds; chances are that vet is familiar with birds. A lot of times it's not a big jump for them to see a chicken instead of a parrot.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (00:58:58):

So, calling exotic animal clinics or clinics that you know see exotics, you're going to have better chances probably finding a vet or ambulatory or mixed animal practice veterinarians, simply because, you know, I'm talking about poultry on podcasts that's typically, you know, more geared towards horses. But guess what? Most horse owners, people that have cows, all that, they have chickens oftentimes. And so, if you can find a vet that sees those farm stock species, the likelihood of them being able to, or being willing to see one of your birds is higher. Another thing that I'll mention is that a lot of times, sometimes like if you're fairly certain that you have Coccidiosis, sometimes all you need is a fecal exam. And so, I encourage all of my students to just run a fecal exam. And that's the kind of thing too, where your regular vet, even if they're not a poultry expert, you know, Coccidiosis in chickens looks like Coccidiosis in dogs.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (01:00:04):

The parasite looks the same under the scope. And so, kind of where I'm going with that is, is find like easy barrier things, like low hanging fruit, that you could go to the vet for. To kind of help build confidence, build your rapport with that veterinarian. And also, it might just behoove you to say, hey, I'm thinking about getting chickens. Would you like, I know, you know, you don't have to be a poultry expert, I know you're not a poultry expert. Would you still be willing to be my vet? And we can learn together, like through this process.


Katy Starr (01:00:36):



Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (01:00:36):

And that also might help you kind of get the attention of a veterinarian and be like, alright, if you're going to be learning and we're do this together kind of thing, you know, they might be more willing to.


Katy Starr (01:00:47):



Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (01:00:47):

So, those are some of the tips I have, unfortunately, sometimes it's just that the only clinic that might be close enough by sees predominantly dogs and cats and they already have more business than they know what to do with. And so, sometimes it's not a matter of they don't want to see your chickens, or they don't want to deal with chickens. It might be that the practice owners saying, yeah, we're not taking more patients, especially not exotics. They might not have the staff or resources.


Katy Starr (01:01:15):

Right, they can't even take what they have this specialty in. Right. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. But those are some great tips though. I feel like that can, hopefully for any of our listeners that do have chickens or are looking to own chickens, gives them some ideas of at least how to find somebody who might be a good fit for them. And so, I'm really glad that we talked about that. And I know that there's so much more that we could go into detail, in depth, about some of these things. And in the future, it actually might be a good opportunity for us to kind of dig deeper into some of this. But as we wrap this episode up today, what would you say are a few of your takeaways that you would like to leave our listeners with on our topic for today?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (01:02:02):

A few takeaways. Always purchase Marek's vaccinated chicks if you can. Do your homework prior to ever getting the animal, to even thinking about getting that animal. Make sure that you have everything set up that you need. Learn through videos, through watching your own birds, through handling your birds, weighing your birds. Know what is normal. I can't tell you the number of times I've asked a client, well, what do the droppings look like in your flock? You know, is there, oh, I have no idea. I don't know. I wasn't even out there today. I have no idea. So, just a lot of times, just a simple, knowing what your chicken's normal feces look like can actually be really important. One other takeaway related to finding veterinary care is don't forget a little plug for myself, are diagnostic labs. So, diagnostic labs are great. As a diagnostician, I can diagnose a condition in an animal. Unfortunately, that we don't have what's called a valid client patient relationship.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (01:03:08):

So, I can't see a deceased animal, diagnose it, and then write you a script for all your other chickens. But at least I can get you a diagnosis, and that way you can work with your veterinarian. Or at least you know, okay, this is something really serious. And just if you ever have unexplained death loss, this is another plug. Don't just let it go. Don't say, oh yeah, well, you know, these chicks are only 50 cents apiece. They all died; I'll just get more. Especially not with older birds. So, once you're in that pullet/cockerel/adult phase, if you have unexplained mortality, a lot of times that should be reported to the state veterinary, because there are things out there like I'm sure most people have heard that we're still dealing with Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI), and that's a reportable disease with very serious consequences.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (01:04:04):

So, the other thing that I would implore folks is that if you do have birds with snotty, swollen faces, or just if you think your flock's diseased, a lot of states have mechanisms that you can report that to the state veterinarian, and they might be able to get you help as well, or talk to a diagnostician at your state or local diagnostic lab. They can talk to you and be like, yes, this is a problem. No, this is probably X, Y, Z. And so, having your resources built, so, you know, I've got a vet here, I have an extension agent over here, and I've got a diagnostician over here. So, kind of have all of your support team kind of lined up. So, that's also really important.


Katy Starr (01:04:48):

Excellent. No, that's great. Great advice, great tips. I feel like we covered so many great things today. How can our listeners stay connected with you after this episode?


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (01:04:58):

Yeah, the best way is just to reach me by email. My email is G, as in giraffe, and then my last name, which is L, O, S as in Sam, S as in Sam, I, E, at Purdue, P, U, R D, U, E, .edu. So, it's Or you can look up and just Google the Indiana Animal Disease Diagnostic Lab and give us a call. And if I'm available, I'll be certainly happy to help.


Katy Starr (01:05:27):

Awesome. And I'll be sure to put that information in our show notes, so it'll be easy for our listeners to connect with you if they have a question or want to learn a little bit more. So.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (01:05:37):

Please do.


Katy Starr (01:05:38):

To our listeners, thank you so much for being here with us today. We really hope that you enjoyed the discussion that we shared about this, and hopefully you feel like you've learned something new, whether you have chickens currently or not, or you're interested in getting some. And Dr. Lossie, thank you for being here with us today. We sure appreciate your time.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (01:05:59):

Absolutely. It's my pleasure. Always looking to spread chicken knowledge.


Katy Starr (01:06:03):

Thank you.


Dr. Geoffrey Lossie (01:06:04):

Thank you.


Katy Starr (01:06:06):

Thanks for listening to the Beyond the Barn podcast by Standlee Forage. We'd love for you to share our podcast with your favorite people and subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite listening platform. Until next time, keep your cinch tight, and don't forget to turn off the water.


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